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  1. #26
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    Jokic is just a monster. His net rating is crazy. Underrated on defense aswell

  2. #27
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    Jokic is the most complete offensive big maybe ever. Certainly since the likes of Hakeem or Duncan. He does everything on offense not just well but exceptionally well. Jumper from midrange to distance, post scoring, footwork, touch shots like floaters, hooks, bank shots, ball handling and passing and facilitating, offensive rebounding, even setting screens, game and tempo control. Facilitates and passes like a point. Scores like a wing. Post presence of a big. Equally effective in transition and in half court. Can use bully ball or finesse and skill. Come to think, I honestly can't think of a more complete offensive player in the history of the game. And not just big men. Idk, maybe a young Bird?

    He's shooting 64% on two point shots, unlike bigs who shoot that percentage who only make dunks and lay-ups, only half of Jokic's two point attempts are dunks and lay-ups.

    The criticism that he needs to do it in the playoffs is fair. But just speaking about his talent and ability as an individual player, that talent offensively is unmatched imo.

  3. #28
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    1. Doncic
    2. Jokic
    3. Durant
    4. Giannis
    5. LeBron
    6. Embiid
    7. Steph
    8. Morant
    9. Harden
    10. Trae

    Kawhi is number 1 when healthy imo, arguably has been the best player in the league since 2016-2017 season when healthy.

    Discuss…
    As I was saying tbh. New rankings

    1. Doncic
    2. Giannis
    3. Jokic
    4. LeBron
    5. Durant
    6. Embiid
    7. Steph
    8. Tatum
    9. Butler
    10. Morant

    Lol at me putting Harden top 10. This version of Harden isn’t even top 25.

  4. #29
    Erryday I'm Hustlin' Robz4000's Avatar
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    1. Giannis
    2. Jokic
    3. Embiid
    4. Doncic
    5. Durant
    6. Lebron
    7. Curry
    8. Tatum
    9. George
    10. Davis? Leonard? Not sure tbh.

  5. #30
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
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    After two rounds I’d say it’s

    1. Giannis
    2. Doncic
    3. Jokic
    4. Durant
    5. Tatum
    6. Embiid
    7. LeBron
    8. Curry
    9. Butler
    10. Morant

  6. #31
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Luka is a Real Madrid legend

  7. #32
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Morant probably should be listed higher if he could stay healthy. Dude is scary.

  8. #33
    Veteran
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    Tier 1: Jokic, Antetokounmpo
    Tier 2: Embiid, Doncic
    Tier 3: James, Durant
    Tier 4: Curry, Tatum, Butler, Morant

    After we just saw Davis and Harden expectedly not look the same post injury, S bag needs to reprove himself a top 10 player to reclaim his spot.

  9. #34
    Believe. Rosewood's Avatar
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    Tier 1: Jokic, Antetokounmpo
    Tier 2: Embiid, Doncic
    Tier 3: James, Durant
    Tier 4: Curry, Tatum, Butler, Morant

    After we just saw Davis and Harden expectedly not look the same post injury, S bag needs to reprove himself a top 10 player to reclaim his spot.
    if kawhi came back fully healthy, would you put him in 1 or 2?

  10. #35
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    if kawhi came back fully healthy, would you put him in 1 or 2?
    Not a chance. If he regains previous form, he's probably in tier 3.

  11. #36
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    I can never understand how overrated Durant is. He is a fantastic scorer, even historically good, but other than that, no other aspect of his game was outstanding. He has a couple of years of really good advanced stats, but other than those 2 or 3 years, his numbers were rather average for an all-time great. He has been most often compared to Lebron James, which he is clearly inferior to. He is not good in leading his team deep into the playoffs, the two years he won the le his team was far and away the most stacked team in the league, and the entire offence was still revolving around Curry while the defence was around Draymond.

    Not saying that he is not good, but he is not better than Embiid, Curry, Tatum, Jokic, Luka, Giannis, or James. I'd argue that this year, he is no better than Butler or Morant. All time wise, he's somewhere in the 25 to 30 range. I give him credit for building up his reputation into something more than what it was through building up his brand and persona, but when you look at his overall body of work, his best playoff run was likely last year (those GSW runs were a joke as he was routinely single teamed).

  12. #37
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Tier 1: Jokic, Antetokounmpo
    Tier 2: Embiid, Doncic
    Tier 3: James, Durant
    Tier 4: Curry, Tatum, Butler, Morant

    After we just saw Davis and Harden expectedly not look the same post injury, S bag needs to reprove himself a top 10 player to reclaim his spot.
    Red means removed. They aren't in the playoffs. We can stop considering Lebron James top 10 any day now.

  13. #38
    Defense Wins Championships Texas_Ranger's Avatar
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    if you count the playoffs then Luka is for sure tier 1. And probably is the best playoff performer since MJ.

  14. #39
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    if you count the playoffs then Luka is for sure tier 1. And probably is the best playoff performer since MJ.
    wow no on that last part

  15. #40
    Erryday I'm Hustlin' Robz4000's Avatar
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    if you count the playoffs then Luka is for sure tier 1. And probably is the best playoff performer since MJ.
    I get Doncic is your boy but let's be real on that second part

  16. #41
    Defense Wins Championships Texas_Ranger's Avatar
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    I get Doncic is your boy but let's be real on that second part
    has there been a game in the playoffs that he didnt perform good or had a disaster of a game? No. His worst game is probably game 2 in PHX and thats just cause he didnt play defense for a quarter, and even then he was by far the best Mavs player on the floor.
    He needs more playoff series wins to be an all time great, but if i am looking at an individual performance, he always shows up. I cant say that about any other current player.

  17. #42
    Erryday I'm Hustlin' Robz4000's Avatar
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    has there been a game in the playoffs that he didnt perform good or had a disaster of a game? No. His worst game is probably game 2 in PHX and thats just cause he didnt play defense for a quarter, and even then he was by far the best Mavs player on the floor.
    He needs more playoff series wins to be an all time great, but if i am looking at an individual performance, he always shows up. I cant say that about any other current player.
    He's been impressive so far but it's way too early to anoint him. In this current generation Giannis has a stronger case, and there's more than a few better since MJ (LeBron, Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, Nephew, Wade, Kirbs). As great as his offensive numbers are until he gets his conditioning together on defense to at least be average he won't join those players.

  18. #43
    Defense Wins Championships Texas_Ranger's Avatar
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    He's been impressive so far but it's way too early to anoint him. In this current generation Giannis has a stronger case, and there's more than a few better since MJ (LeBron, Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, Nephew, Wade, Kirbs). As great as his offensive numbers are until he gets his conditioning together on defense to at least be average he won't join those players.
    yea i dont have him as one of the greatest, but just as a great performer. If you compare his first 23 games, only MJ is better if we are comparing stats. Im sure these stats will most likely go down, but so far it has been impressive.

  19. #44
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    it's a bit early to anoint him, but I will say this, I have not seen someone as unguardable as Luka since Jordan. maybe there is just a scheme we have yet to see, but fact is there has not been a single scheme or player that could stop Luka from doing anything he wants, except for himself when he overdoes the hero ball and stifles the offense (which was Mike's only real weakness as well)

    all other greats since Mike (Kobe, Bron, Giannis, KD, Steph, Tim, Shaq, etc...) have had some type of offensive limitation or weakness that could be exposed. I've yet to see that truly exposed in Luka. maybe it will end up being his FT shooting, but it seems he's improved that quite a bit overall already.

    time will tell, but eye test and stats both say he's pretty unstoppable so far

  20. #45
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    I hated his game because I thought it involved over dribbling, blackhole ball dominating, and foul baiting, but Houston Rockets James Harden was about as unstoppable and unguardable an offensive force the league has ever seen, particularly for a perimeter player. And sure, a lot of it had to do with forcing foul calls by initiating contact and flopping. But it was gaming the system and it worked. His ability to get to the rim to force a foul call combined with his side step three made him an even tougher guard than LeBron imo.

    And again, I hate to say it because I despised watching his game.

    But I actually view Luka similarly in his variety of offensive skills, ability to use both strength and finesse/skill, and ability to attack whatever kind of defender or defense is played on him. The one thing I hope with Luka is that he finds a better balance with his ball dominating isolation approach on offense and him being being able to trust his teammates and becoming more effective playing off the ball. Harden never evolved his game that way. And I don't mean Luka simply being able to let other guys like Brunson and Dinwiddie take over while he stands and watches from the weakside elbow. I mean Luka actually playing off the ball, setting screens, then cutting and slashing, forcing defenses to chase him even without the ball, running the wings on a break where he's the finisher and not the guy leading the break, posting, kicking back out, then reposting, forcing the defense to work a little bit more.

    I agree that Luka is already one of the most unguardable scorers ever. I think he can be even better.

  21. #46
    Defense Wins Championships Texas_Ranger's Avatar
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    Luka ball hogging is not even close to Hardens. Dallas stoots the best quality and most open shots in the playoffs and its not even close.... And most of those shots are created by Luka. Also, James Harden was a great regualar season players, but that never really translated into the playoffs.

  22. #47
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
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    Luka ball hogging is not even close to Hardens. Dallas stoots the best quality and most open shots in the playoffs and its not even close.... And most of those shots are created by Luka. Also, James Harden was a great regualar season players, but that never really translated into the playoffs.
    Luka late in games has definitely had Harden-esque instances where he kills the offensive flow and takes way too long to get into his action. Then teams trap him late in the shot clock, Luka passes it, and the guy receiving the ball either panics and runs out of time (DFS, Kleber) or has to jack up a terrible shot (Dinwiddie, Brunson).

    It happened most notably in Game 6 vs Utah which should have been an easy win, but Luka pounding the air out of the ball in the last 3 minutes almost lost the game. Game 6 vs Phoenix he started killing the momentum in the same way in the second half, but it seems like he realized it and started moving the ball to Brunson & Dinwiddie earlier.

    It’s a nitpick, but a couple bad sequences like that could be the difference between winning a le or not.

  23. #48
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    I wasn't suggesting Luka is exactly like Houston James Harden. Of course they aren't the same. And it wasn't meant as a slight to Luka, whose game is way more enjoyable to watch. But I do think there are similarities.

    I only mentioned Harden in response to the idea that Luka is the most unguardable player since Jordan. Whether you like Harden's game or hate it, there was a stretch of idk 3-4 seasons where I would argue Rockets James Harden was the most unguardable offensive player in the league, and in the most dominant way probably since Shaq. I put that version of James Harden as more unguardable than LeBron or Durant or Steph. You just couldn't stop him from getting to the rim without fouling him. And when he started to hit those sidestep threes at a high rate, you simply couldn't even contest those shots.

    This coming from a true diehard James Harden hater. I abhorred his game. Hated the 50 back and forth crossover dribbles thru his legs every set. Hated watching him hook defenders' arms then flailing his to get whistles. Hated seeing a 5 out offensive set where Harden was at the top of the key for 18-20 seconds and his 4 teammates were just standing and watching. Despised it all.

    But still unguardable.

  24. #49
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    I hated his game because I thought it involved over dribbling, blackhole ball dominating, and foul baiting, but Houston Rockets James Harden was about as unstoppable and unguardable an offensive force the league has ever seen, particularly for a perimeter player. And sure, a lot of it had to do with forcing foul calls by initiating contact and flopping. But it was gaming the system and it worked. His ability to get to the rim to force a foul call combined with his side step three made him an even tougher guard than LeBron imo.

    And again, I hate to say it because I despised watching his game.

    But I actually view Luka similarly in his variety of offensive skills, ability to use both strength and finesse/skill, and ability to attack whatever kind of defender or defense is played on him. The one thing I hope with Luka is that he finds a better balance with his ball dominating isolation approach on offense and him being being able to trust his teammates and becoming more effective playing off the ball. Harden never evolved his game that way. And I don't mean Luka simply being able to let other guys like Brunson and Dinwiddie take over while he stands and watches from the weakside elbow. I mean Luka actually playing off the ball, setting screens, then cutting and slashing, forcing defenses to chase him even without the ball, running the wings on a break where he's the finisher and not the guy leading the break, posting, kicking back out, then reposting, forcing the defense to work a little bit more.

    I agree that Luka is already one of the most unguardable scorers ever. I think he can be even better.
    yep losing some weight and improving his conditioning should help him have more energy to expend in his off ball offense. definitely should be Kidd's next point of focus for Luka for his development

  25. #50
    Because I choose to. Neo.'s Avatar
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    I wasn't suggesting Luka is exactly like Houston James Harden. Of course they aren't the same. And it wasn't meant as a slight to Luka, whose game is way more enjoyable to watch. But I do think there are similarities.

    I only mentioned Harden in response to the idea that Luka is the most unguardable player since Jordan. Whether you like Harden's game or hate it, there was a stretch of idk 3-4 seasons where I would argue Rockets James Harden was the most unguardable offensive player in the league, and in the most dominant way probably since Shaq. I put that version of James Harden as more unguardable than LeBron or Durant or Steph. You just couldn't stop him from getting to the rim without fouling him. And when he started to hit those sidestep threes at a high rate, you simply couldn't even contest those shots.

    This coming from a true diehard James Harden hater. I abhorred his game. Hated the 50 back and forth crossover dribbles thru his legs every set. Hated watching him hook defenders' arms then flailing his to get whistles. Hated seeing a 5 out offensive set where Harden was at the top of the key for 18-20 seconds and his 4 teammates were just standing and watching. Despised it all.

    But still unguardable.
    when he utilized his skills I agree. unfortunately for him, his weakness comes from his mental approach, where he consistently disappears or stops shooting when defensive intensity is ramped up and in big games

    Kobe is as or more unguardable than harden (in terms of sheer skills), but he had a mental issue too where he could be baited into bad and dumb shots really easily

    Luka doesn't seem to have either of those issues, he definitely does not shy away from any kind of defense (unlike harden), and doesn't get baited into stupid shots consistently, as he always is looking for the easiest possible shot when using his footwork and will generally pass out if a clean shot isn't there (unlike Kobe)

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