Y'all put too much faith into the three young guards. They may be good, but very likely not the consistent good that DeRozan is. I realize this board is filled with wall-banging whackos, but DDR really does have value. I mean, it shows when you think he can be traded for Bradley Beal and in the same breath say he sucks. It can't be both ways.
Where would the offense come from?
if only the spurs didn't trade for him in the first place... wtf
From Aldridge and extended roles to White and Walker. Otto Porter can hit the open 3 too. Murray, supposedly, worked hard on his game too. Then you have guys like Mills, Forbes, Belinelli, and, especially, Gay coming off the bench.
The closing lineup would probably look something like White, Walker, Otto Porter, Gay and Aldridge.
Aldridge is your go to guy on the post.
Gay can do work on the post and or isolation.
White and Walker work the pick and roll.
Porter provides spacing.
On paper, that's a better, much more ballanced lineup than anything involving DeRozan; where he's pretty much useless anytime he doesn't have the ball.
thats been my point this who.e time. Well said. Even though you guys didn't like my Wiggins thread the point was to deal DD now for front court player(s) so the young guys can have the backcourt and grow with another player. Even if the Spurs had two max slots open in the future they are more than likely not drawing two max player this isn't Los Angeles.
But if the could get a young small forward or young power forward that's locked up for a bit that helps this team stay relevant and maybe win again. So you guys don't like Wiggins fine but I do like him but also would love Gordon with other pieces and I think Chicago could match but Porter would need extension. Otherwise we would be in the same boat.
By by no means do I have DD I actually like him and think he gets a bad rap when he is a good teammate and hustles but now is the time to strike for good value. He walks away then kawitter trade was Poetrl and Keldon .....that wouldn't be cool at all.
I don't think these are the right questions.
1) The team isn't a contender now, but they'd have a chance with the right win-now trade. DeRozan is their best perimeter player until demonstrated otherwise. So they aren't going to get better by not having him.
2) Simply put, the team should have two or three guys they really consider their future core and then the rest should be moveable for the right deal. You can make the same argument for trading White or Poeltl that you could make for trading DeRozan. It's just not likely that all of these players will be Spurs after 2020-2021. The difference is if you can deal some of them for win-now pieces, you can possibly make a le run. Trading for the future almost never works out. Even the best examples (Philly and OKC) have zero les to speak of. People tend to believe in this idea that you have future le windows based on the age of your core. It's not true. Your only window is what you can open at the moment. Anything can happen in the future to destroy your plans.
I know. But some people here legit think Derrick White is a better player right now than DeRozan, so you can't tell those guys anything. Murray simply isn't good enough to worry about how All-Stars fit with him. DeJounte has an All-Defense, but DeRozan has many more accolades. Considering that White, Walker, Samanic and Johnson all fit just fine in a DeRozan paradigm, I don't see why it's obvious that Murray should win out. Both expire this year, and personally, I believe DJM will make a lot of money on his next contract, so the bargain factor may not be a thing. I've of the mind that the future of the team is open until we see how it all shakes out. There may come a time when trading DeRozan really does make sense, but there may also come a time where trading Murray or White makes sense.
Hey, preaching to the choir here..I advocated for SA to do something more aggressive to win now OR go the other direction.
det irony
It's not irony to bring up another absurd example of show why simply saying "well it happened with a different roster and in a different league a couple of year ago, so it'd happen again" doesn't work. This roster and that are like night and day.
Understood. I just didn't know if I missed some official statement.
I think that would be exactly right. A value play, but not a jailbreak. The team is almost certainly better with him this coming season, TBH. But if trading him gives them a chance to get a running start on the future with player(s) and/or pick(s)? Trade him if you get a deal, and stand pat if you don't.
I know there are people who hate the guy, and would dump him for nothing. But at this point, now that the free agents are picked over? That would be a dumb move.
I think the Spurs should do a win-now trade. I thought they pissed away an opportunity when they didn't deal Gasol's contract last year. They had a real chance to beat Chicago's offer for Porter, and had they had Otto, I think the Spurs would have made it to the WCF. Now, it's harder because they only have Mills and Beli to match deals, and most good players making money in that range are considered very good deals and not on the block. I'd deal one of Murray, White, Poeltl or Johnson for Covington, but anyone else in that range would only get picks from me.
Maybe Gallo for Mills, Beli, Metu and a first? That's a good deal in terms of cap savings, and Gallo does raise the ceiling a bit. That's the best win-now trade I can come up with that doesn't destroy the future like a Paul trade would. Something like Mills and a second for James Johnson cleans up around the edges, but I don't see that making SA contenders or anything.
While it may be night and day, the point of that was that you don’t need a second star like DeRozan to make the playoffs with LMA. As you admitted, the team is reasonably more talented this year knowing White is a solid player and DeRozan along with Poeltl/Carroll/Rudy and Forbes improving.
That’s the point; not that it was identical rosters.
the pre-derozan roster? with kyle anderson, old man manu, and dejounte as the main differences between then and last season. if derozan cant outweigh those guys (when also adding derrick white) and we end up with effectively identical results, he aint worth much to us.
yes the spurs made the playoffs pre-aldridge but with aldridge we had a 67 win season and followed that up with a WCF year even with a duncan retirement. he was still a net positive and it was clear. not the case with derozan
That is why I think trading DeRozan becomes prudent. If going for it does not appear really possible and you know you can’t contend unless you make a win now move, then you can still make the playoffs while getting better for the future.
It’s not prioritizing the future more than winning now; it’s that winning now isn’t possible so you have to give yourself a better chance in the future although of course there are no guarantees. Only thing we know for sure is that with the team as currently constructed there is zero chance of winning now.
I am not dealing White/Murray/Lonnie for anyone that isnt already on the cusp of being an all star or more. But picks, Poeltl, Luka, other young guys? All on the table.
Derozan should be traded for the right value.
Otto Porter or if you can snag Aaron Gordon, will def improve the teams needs. Walker is almost identical to Derozan, but younger and can hit a 3 pointer. Go with the youth movement or lose Derozan for nothing soon.
I said considering the ceilings, the roster might be more talent. Like yeah, Walker is the most talented guy SA has drafted since Kawhi and then Manu. But he's a zero until proven otherwise. Green is one of the best role-players in NBA history. White might be more versatile, but Danny was a huge reason why Toronto was 17-5 without Kawhi. White doesn't have that type of impact. Also, again, 2017 LMA is better than any player on this team by a lot. 2019 Aldridge shouldn't be expected to compare.
Reasonable - but I have faith knowing Dejounte is good, White is much better than he was then, Lonnie has huge upside, Poeltl works well and Forbes/Carroll are legit good players too.
I’m not saying lock it up, but there is enough data there to suggest playoffs would still be attainable IMO and if we know we aren’t contending without a significant trade and that can’t/won’t happen, the alternative has to be pursued.
Ok Chinook:
Would you do: Marvin Williams + Bismack + Bridges + a top 10 protected 1st? Or something in that regard where you don’t land a better player now than DeRozan, but land a player (Williams in this case) who will bolster overall rotation for a playoff push, while getting a young prospect and pick for the future or do you think that is dumb?
DeRozan was a net-positive. His teams keep making the playoffs. Covington's teams don't (and no, even when he played, the Wolves weren't on a playoff pace).
Also, Aldridge's on-off in his time with the Spurs is 0.1. That's it. Barely positive, despite him being the best or second-best player on the team. Last year, Aldridge was -1.8.
Anyway, yeah, that "terrible" pre-DeRozan roster had the best defense in the league. They didn't just replace those guys with DeRozan. They also swapped in Beli for Green and lost Murray altogether. They were "barely improved" because their supporting cast took a huge step back. That matter should be fixed now, but they'd still have to worry about Aldridge's age and hoping Carroll fits in enough to give the Spurs an elite D. Not remotely guaranteed.
Guys I keep saying this, DD was there for just a couple months before season began and he got better throughout the year. Give him a chance. I think he's going to be pretty good
This trade would need to involve two more Spurs, but I'd probably do it. I would have done Williams, MKG and 12. I may have even done 12 and Batum for DeRozan if PATFO really like Sekou. Anyway Charlotte isn't in win-now mode, so they wouldn't do that trade. They might do those guys and the pick, but I doubt they'd give up bridges. Maybe Bridges and Batum simply because Batum's salary is that doodoo.
Still, it makes the most sense to see how the young guards come out. If they're duds or even just still young guards and not stars, then there isn't a playoff push to be found. If they play well enough to where the team doesn't need DeRozan, then it makes sense to explore trades.
Yeah was just a general framework to see where your head is at. CHA is never in win now mode; they seem to be in cusp of the playoffs for eternity mode but not wanting a SuperMax on the books mode.
So DeRozan/Beli/flier might get that done while appeasing fans.
But was more of a framework. I am more interested personally in a swap of someone that fits a little better like Otto or Gordon. To me, that is preferable even if you aren’t getting future assets. Get younger with slightly yes talent but more opportunity to fit/grow with younger core.
I believe that if PATFO intends to trade Demar, this will happen before the start of the season
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