Manu Ginobili vs Gilbert Arenas

[RC_Drunkford]

Where is he top 5 regarded? Jordan, Kobe, Gervin, Jerry West, Curry all better

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

[John B]

After Gilbert's remarks about Manu on his recent podcast, I thought it would be appropriate to make this thread.

Manu played a 6th because the system demanded him to, and win more games and eventually championships. Manu could very well start on all teams, not just the Spurs, and would have better stats if not playing in an egalitarian style offense. The guy plays 100% on both sides of the court, every-single-night! Neither Jamal nor Lou played defense. Manu is so crafty and tenacious that he could will his team to win. Neither Jamal nor Lou could do that. They could score bunches, but can they win ballgames and especially when it’s on the line. It’s insulting to even make the comparison, and not only because Manu is my all-time favorite player. Timmy is only second. Not Jordan nor Magic nor Bird. It was Manu.

[rastaspur]

Manu put those stats up because he was the 6 man
If he was a starter the whole time his stats would not be as good as they were

He was special because he gave 150 percent on court he knew he could with the minutes he played

Manu could have dropped 25 a game as the main option of a lesser team. Easily. He didn't give a about his stats.

He's a first ballot hall and hall of famer. Gilbert and Crawford will never sniff the hof.

End of debate.

And I'd put my money on Manu in a one on one. Crawford can't guard him.

[rascal]

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

West was both a pg and sg and considered more a sg.

Manu is in the top 20 on many sites, not even in the top 10. He didn't have high enough stats.

[rascal]

Manu could have dropped 25 a game as the main option of a lesser team. Easily. He didn't give a about his stats.

He's a first ballot hall and hall of famer. Gilbert and Crawford will never sniff the hof.

End of debate.

And I'd put my money on Manu in a one on one. Crawford can't guard him.

He's a Hall of Famer mainly based on his international resume, doesn't get anywhere close only on his NBA resume.

[rascal]

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

What people mention Manu as 4th?

[DAF86]

You always got to go overboard. Harden is one of the greatest regular season offensive players in history and combined an sustained efficiency and mpg/usage load for about a decade that Ginobili and most players almost certainly couldn't have.

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

[Em-City]

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

I'm a Manu guy but I'd say harden is the better shooter

[DAF86]

I'm a Manu guy but I'd say harden is the better shooter

Statistically, he isn't.

[TD 21]

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

[KingKev]

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports...0-7236e77fea0f

Arenas pulling the strap on his teammate would make a legendary NFT though.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

dude this is settled science

[RC_Drunkford]

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

yet your only argument for "Davis is better than Aldridge" was general consensus and your "supreme basketball knowledge" so you don't have any as I expected

[TD 21]

yet your only argument for "Davis is better than Aldridge" was general consensus and your "supreme basketball knowledge" so you don't have any as I expected

You forgot advanced stats.

Results without context and Aldridge better than Davis, yet having the audacity to ask for reasons to the contrary.

[DAF86]

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

Don't know what you're talking about but I've always used advanced stats in a context.

Just because Harden got the chance to play on a gimmicky offense that allowed him to stat pad like no other player in history, it doesn't mean I'm going to automatically put him above any player with lesser advanced stats. For example, I'm not going to put him over Duncan just because Harden has a higher BPM.

On the same sense, if Manu and Harden reversed roles, Harden would have stayed forever a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook, and Manu would have went to be the number one guy on Dantoni's system, who do you think would have the better advanced stats?

Also, Manu's advanced stats are compromised from playing like 7 or 8 season well past his prime. Let's wait 'till Harden retires to see if his advanced stats remain as good as now.

[TD 21]

Don't know what you're talking about but I've always used advanced stats in a context.

Just because Harden got the chance to play on a gimmicky offense that allowed him to stat pad like no other player in history, it doesn't mean I'm going to automatically put him above any player with lesser advanced stats. For example, I'm not going to put him over Duncan just because Harden has a higher BPM.

On the same sense, if Manu and Harden reversed roles, Harden would have stayed forever a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook, and Manu would have went to be the number one guy on Dantoni's system, who do you think would have the better advanced stats?

Also, Manu's advanced stats are compromised from playing like 7 or 8 season well past his prime. Let's wait 'till Harden retires to see if his advanced stats remain as good as now.

I said selectively, not context.

Harden's regular season offensive peak/advanced stats were insane. Of course they're aided in part by him/the Rockets taking the math to the extreme (which is the main reason why I think it's difficult to compare the Duncan/O'Neal era to the James era), but still.

He carried a mpg/usage role that Ginobili likely couldn't have and mostly did so without so much as a Parker, let alone Duncan, which makes it all the more impressive.

[rascal]

Harden is better offensively.

Manu had his moments of high offensive play but was very inconsistent overall.

[DAF86]

He carried a mpg/usage role that Ginobili likely couldn't have

This is the only argument folks can come up against Manu being on the same tier with these guys: the unproven notion that Manu can't carry the workload of a number one option. Because they know Manu has all the rest: skill, leadership, intangibles, clutchness.

Either way, is weird that you of all people bring this up as a parameter to determine which player is better when you have been so outspoken in favour of Anthony Davis. A guy we all know can definitely not carry that load (or any type of load apparently).

and mostly did so without so much as a Parker, let alone Duncan, which makes it all the more impressive.

Not having those kind of guys as teammates actually works in your favour when it comes to advanced stats. When you aren't on the court there's nobody that can make up for your contribution, therefore your impact stats will tend to be even better.

[TD 21]

This is the only argument folks can come up against Manu being on the same tier with these guys: the unproven notion that Manu can't carry the workload of a number one option. Because they know Manu has all the rest: skill, leadership, intangibles, clutchness.

Either way, is weird that you of all people bring this up as a parameter to determine which player is better when you have been so outspoken in favour of Anthony Davis. A guy we all know can definitely not carry that load (or any type of load apparently).



Not having those kind of guys as teammates actually works in your favour when it comes to advanced stats. When you aren't on the court there's nobody that can make up for your contribution, therefore your impact stats will tend to be even better.

Ginobili is not in the same class as Harden by advanced metrics, the ones you like to allude to long as they support your argument at the time.

Except I didn't say it was a parameter in a general sense and clearly meant it more so as another point in Harden's favor over Ginobili. Also, Davis generally plays 34-36 mpg and about 60+ games per season, so this isn't S bag who needed to be babied throughout his 20s.

No, it doesn't. It's rare that efficiency improves with greater mpg/usage and lesser surrounding talent.

[DAF86]

Ginobili is not in the same class as Harden by advanced metrics, the ones you like to allude to long as they support your argument at the time.

For the difference in roles they have had and the fact that Manu's stats are hampered by so many non-prime years, they actually are pretty much on the same class. Just to name an example, Manu is a lot closer to Harden, than Reggie Miller (a top 75 player of all time, and someone most casual NBA fans would rank ahead of Manu) is to Ginobili.

Except I didn't say it was a parameter in a general sense and clearly meant it more so as another point in Harden's favor over Ginobili. Also, Davis generally plays 34-36 mpg and about 60+ games per season, so this isn't S bag who needed to be babied throughout his 20s.

Another point in favour of Harden over Ginobili? What are those "other points"? I asked you what could Harden do better than Ginobili and you couldn't answer.

No, it doesn't. It's rare that efficiency improves with greater mpg/usage and lesser surrounding talent.

Efficiency might not improve, but impact does. It is why Jokic has been a beast on this regard the last couple of years without Murray. Manu's best statistical season in terms of advanced metrics is the year where he played the most minutes and Tim and Tony missed some time.

[The Truth #6]

Longevity vs prime. That’s another debate, and I think longevity trumps a brief prime window typically, and to me that favors Manu.

Ginobili is a winner. Harden is a regular season statistical gem, I’ll admit, but a loser overall. He had refs benefitting him egregiously, so much that the NBA had to correct course from making the game look so pathetic, in my opinion.

[R. DeMurre]

The advanced stats of Manu vs Harden are not that far apart. Harden's peak BPM and VORP are higher than Manu's, but Manu's career +/- on/off per 100 is higher than Harden's, his peak seasons for that stat are far better, and that includes his years from age 35-40. Harden is already showing signs of dropping off at age 32, and Manu's impact stats at age 32 were better than his. If you take away Manu's BPM numbers from ages 35-40, he and Harden are nearly identical. But beyond that, I'd say are the intangibles. Ginobili never had a single beef with another player in his career as far as I know. Harden had trouble getting along with Chris Paul, with Westbrook, with Dwight Howard, with Kyrie, with Durant etc., etc., plus he had the reputation as one of the NBA's most uninterested defenders and biggest partiers... Manu was the consummate teammate and pro his entire career. Harden has contributed to team disharmony at some point everywhere he has gone. Manu never did that.


https://www.basketball-reference.com...ginobma01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com...hardeja01.html

[TD 21]

For the difference in roles they have had and the fact that Manu's stats are hampered by so many non-prime years, they actually are pretty much on the same class. Just to name an example, Manu is a lot closer to Harden, than Reggie Miller (a top 75 player of all time, and someone most casual NBA fans would rank ahead of Manu) is to Ginobili.



Another point in favour of Harden over Ginobili? What are those "other points"? I asked you what could Harden do better than Ginobili and you couldn't answer.



Efficiency might not improve, but impact does. It is why Jokic has been a beast on this regard the last couple of years without Murray. Manu's best statistical season in terms of advanced metrics is the year where he played the most minutes and Tim and Tony missed some time.

No, they're not. As usual you can't be objective when it comes to Ginobili. Harden was a perennial top 5 regular season player in his prime, while Ginobili only had a few seasons where he could have been considered top 10ish. I agree he's clearly better than someone like Miller though.

The fact that Harden is a a greater generator of offense and not just in volume (TS%, AST%, etc.). You thinking this is a legit debate is absurd even for you.

Not necessarily. Generally counting stats do and they fool casuals in the process.

[DAF86]

No, they're not. As usual you can't be objective when it comes to Ginobili. Harden was a perennial top 5 regular season player in his prime, while Ginobili only had a few seasons where he could have been considered top 10ish. I agree he's clearly better than someone like Miller though.

Do you think Harden would have reached those peaks if he stayed a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook? Dumbasses would probably still be saying Westbrook is better.

Is it really that hard for you to vizualize how Manu could have done similar to Harden if he had went to become a number one option on another team, specially under a coach like D'antoni? Sure, Manu probably wouldn't have averaged a 37 ppg/10 apg season. He's too smart to ball hog like. But he could have easily averaged 25, 7 and 7 while making folks around him much better and saving himself for the playoffs.

The fact that Harden is a a greater generator of offense and not just in volume (TS%, AST%, etc.). You thinking this is a legit debate is absurd even for you.

Again, all part of the system. It's obvious that your AST% will be higher than the norm when the entire offense revolves around you dribling the air of the ball 90% of the time. When you have other playmakers on your team, you won't hog most of the assists.

Same thing with TS%. When you are told to shoot as many 3's as you like and you are a good free throw creator (as was also Manu) you will tend to have a higher TS% the more chances you get to hog the ball.

Not necessarily. Generally counting stats do and they fool casuals in the process.

Not necessarily, but most times. Specially if the player is good. Manu was that good as to increase his metrics when he was asked to do more. The stats prove it.

It's really your problem, not mine, that you can't realize just how good a player Manu actually was, after seeing him play for so long.

[TD 21]

Do you think Harden would have reached those peaks if he stayed a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook? Dumbasses would probably still be saying Westbrook is better.

Is it really that hard for you to vizualize how Manu could have done similar to Harden if he had went to become a number one option on another team, specially under a coach like D'antoni? Sure, Manu probably wouldn't have averaged a 37 ppg/10 apg season. He's too smart to ball hog like. But he could have easily averaged 25, 7 and 7 while making folks around him much better and saving himself for the playoffs.



Again, all part of the system. It's obvious that your AST% will be higher than the norm when the entire offense revolves around you dribling the air of the ball 90% of the time. When you have other playmakers on your team, you won't hog most of the assists.

Same thing with TS%. When you are told to shoot as many 3's as you like and you are a good free throw creator (as was also Manu) you will tend to have a higher TS% the more chances you get to hog the ball.



Not necessarily, but most times. Specially if the player is good. Manu was that good as to increase his metrics when he was asked to do more. The stats prove it.

It's really your problem, not mine, that you can't realize just how good a player Manu actually was, after seeing him play for so long.

I think they both ended up in the appropriate role. Having 3 young, high usage perimeter superstars in the making was never going to last with the Thunder, while Ginobili, for much of his prime, got to be something like a co first option (all of the big 3 were).

Of course Ginobili could have beefed up his counting stats, but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.

Except Harden was the "system" and that's irrelevant to assist % (it's not assists per game).

You can spin and take shots at him all you want, the fact remains he was inarguably a greater generator of offense.

I realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, I'm just not a blind homer like you.