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  1. #101
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Except Harden was the "system"
    Just like Manu would have been the system under that same team philosophy and roster construction. Manu could do anything that Harden does and then some. Seriously, tell me one thing, ONE, that Harden did that Manu couldn't. Off the drible, step back threes? Got it. Draw fouls? The original "flopper". Pass the ball? Even better than Harden. Attack the basket? Ditto. The only difference is that Harden had the freedom to ball hog as much as he wanted and Manu had to share it with two fellow hall of famers. Go check Harden's advanced stats when he had to share the rock and tell me how good they were.

    and that's irrelevant to assist % (it's not assists per game).
    I know what AST% is. It is the % of assists you get from your team. How in the being the only playamker of your team is irrelevant to AST%? If you have no other playmaker on your team you will have a higher AST% than a guy that has to share it with two other playmakers. That doesn't necessarily mean you are the better "offense genrator", though. It just means you have the ball in your hands a of a lot more.

    You can spin and take shots at him all you want, the fact remains he was inarguably a greater generator of offense.

    I realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, I'm just not a blind homer like you.
    If you realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, then you are overrating the out of Harden and the inflated regular season stats he was able to put up under a system that gave him the loosest of reigns. Again, just go and check how Harden does everytime he's matched with a fellow star.

  2. #102
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    Just like Manu would have been the system under that same team philosophy and roster construction. Manu could do anything that Harden does and then some. Seriously, tell me one thing, ONE, that Harden did that Manu couldn't. Off the drible, step back threes? Got it. Draw fouls? The original "flopper". Pass the ball? Even better than Harden. Attack the basket? Ditto. The only difference is that Harden had the freedom to ball hog as much as he wanted and Manu had to share it with two fellow hall of famers. Go check Harden's advanced stats when he had to share the rock and tell me how good they were.



    I know what AST% is. It is the % of assists you get from your team. How in the being the only playamker of your team is irrelevant to AST%? If you have no other playmaker on your team you will have a higher AST% than a guy that has to share it with two other playmakers. That doesn't necessarily mean you are the better "offense genrator", though. It just means you have the ball in your hands a of a lot more.



    If you realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, then you are overrating the out of Harden and the inflated regular season stats he was able to put up under a system that gave him the loosest of reigns. Again, just go and check how Harden does everytime he's matched with a fellow star.
    He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.

    Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.

    Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.

  3. #103
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.
    How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.

    Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.
    I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

    Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

    A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

    Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

    After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?

    Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.
    Now this is the most re ed I've read/heard in a long time. Even more re ed than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win ; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win , the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win , the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did?

    The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties?
    Last edited by DAF86; 08-04-2022 at 11:39 PM.

  4. #104
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    He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.

    Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.

    Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.
    This is an odd statement . Your reality exists
    through selective words.

    Thats like me saying spurs would only have 1 championship if they had Harden instead of Manu. Numbers are overrated.

    Its the impact they have on both ends while blending in with your teammates. There are intangibles that cant be measured by numbers and are a big reason why teams win les.

    Manu the compe or easily surpasses.

  5. #105
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    harden's game, to me, has always been overrated. he hogs the ball for most of a shot clock, plays crappy defense and shrinks in the bright lights. none of that shows up in stats but i guarantee it shows up in the win/loss column. and if a picture says a thousand words:


  6. #106
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    How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.



    I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

    Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

    A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

    Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

    After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?



    Now this is the most re ed I've read/heard in a long time. Even more re ed than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win ; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win , the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win , the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did?

    The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties?

  7. #107
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    Is Jamal Crawford a HoFer?
    Manu








    Jamal Crawford

    Any questions?

  8. #108
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    I clown on here all the time but Manu was the truth. That MFer didn't discriminate either. Anybody could get that work. Just ask Jim and 2004 Olympic team

  9. #109
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    How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.



    I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

    Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

    A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

    Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

    After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?



    Now this is the most re ed I've read/heard in a long time. Even more re ed than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win ; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win , the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win , the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did?

    The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties?
    So he should have been in his prime from ages 20-22?

    You can keep spinning, crying and taking shots all you want, the bottom line is Harden is inarguably a better player and if you said Ginobili were better on any non Spurs forum on the internet, you'd be laughed out of the place.


    This is an odd statement . Your reality exists
    through selective words.

    Thats like me saying spurs would only have 1 championship if they had Harden instead of Manu. Numbers are overrated.

    Its the impact they have on both ends while blending in with your teammates. There are intangibles that cant be measured by numbers and are a big reason why teams win les.

    Manu the compe or easily surpasses.
    Unsurprisingly, the point went over both of your heads. I'm not arguing intangibles or Harden's playoff performance, I'm saying, Ginobili stays the same except for getting the talent/durability boost of prime Harden tacked on, I'd like their chances of winning more than 5 with 2 MVP caliber players who would have complemented one another well, plus a third All-Star.

  10. #110
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    i dont feel like getting into the stat debates... but can anyone remember a game like this one from harden, arens or crawfrd?



    https://www.basketball-reference.com...504300DEN.html

  11. #111
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    So he should have been in his prime from ages 20-22?
    Should he be out of it at age 31?

    You can keep spinning, crying and taking shots all you want, the bottom line is Harden is inarguably a better player and if you said Ginobili were better on any non Spurs forum on the internet, you'd be laughed out of the place.
    Can you answer this question with honesty: If Harden would have stayed on OKC as the 6th man, and Manu would have went to another team to be the number one option, who do you think would have the better stats now (both raw and advanced) and would be seen as the better player?

    Unsurprisingly, the point went over both of your heads. I'm not arguing intangibles or Harden's playoff performance, I'm saying, Ginobili stays the same except for getting the talent/durability boost of prime Harden tacked on, I'd like their chances of winning more than 5 with 2 MVP caliber players who would have complemented one another well, plus a third All-Star.
    No, the one that doesn't seem to get it is you. The only reason Harden got to prove he was an MVP level player is because he went to another team to be a number one option, if he played with Duncan all his career you wouldn't be saying James is an MVP caliber player. Just like you don't say Ginobili is an MVP caliber player now.

  12. #112
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    Manu’s prime was affected by a bad ankle that took awhile to get right iirc. I mean, Curry’s early years were worse until he got his ankle right. What’s weird about Harden is not injury but borderline obesity and an unwillingness to adapt to rule changes that no longer benefit him. Harden has more durability and better luck with his Houston situation. As Harden sticks around and begins to fade quickly, his shine will dull, and the argument for Manu should improve for casual fans. I mean, Harden is on his way to being a Ben Simmons joke the way his career has started to precipitously nosedive.

  13. #113
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    Should he be out of it at age 31?



    Can you answer this question with honesty: If Harden would have stayed on OKC as the 6th man, and Manu would have went to another team to be the number one option, who do you think would have the better stats now (both raw and advanced) and would be seen as the better player?



    No, the one that doesn't seem to get it is you. The only reason Harden got to prove he was an MVP level player is because he went to another team to be a number one option, if he played with Duncan all his career you wouldn't be saying James is an MVP caliber player. Just like you don't say Ginobili is an MVP caliber player now.
    People exit it at different times for different reasons, but I've never understood why in this sport if you're a good-great prospect you're expected to be immediately in your prime and there's little context provided to team wide results.

    I already did, you just can't handle the answer because you're a shameless fanboy. I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.

    Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.

  14. #114
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    People exit it at different times for different reasons, but I've never understood why in this sport if you're a good-great prospect you're expected to be immediately in your prime and there's little context provided to team wide results.

    I already did, you just can't handle the answer because you're a shameless fanboy. I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.

    Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.
    Where?

  15. #115
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    I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.
    Not at all comparable. All those guys had the chance of getting undisputed number one touches. So there are no hypotheticals there. We never saw Manu as the undisputed number one option of an NBA team.

  16. #116
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    Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.
    As usual, you don't adress my point, but since you brought it up, tell me how many teammates won MVP while being on the same team.

    Of course a team can have multiple MVP caliber players at the same time, in fact many (if not most) championship teams in history have had multiple MVP caliber players, specially dinasties. That's exactly why they dominate.

  17. #117
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    Various times I alluded to it, but specifically here: but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.


    Not at all comparable. All those guys had the chance of getting undisputed number one touches. So there are no hypotheticals there. We never saw Manu as the undisputed number one option of an NBA team.
    I can't decipher whether you're being intentionally obtuse or you're really this dense. I'm saying, I'm able to view things objectively and injuries derailed all of their primes.


    As usual, you don't adress my point, but since you brought it up, tell me how many teammates won MVP while being on the same team.

    Of course a team can have multiple MVP caliber players at the same time, in fact many (if not most) championship teams in history have had multiple MVP caliber players, specially dinasties. That's exactly why they dominate.
    I did, you just don't like the non homer answers. You don't have to actually win the award to be MVP caliber fool.

  18. #118
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    Various times I alluded to it, but specifically here: but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.
    That's not what I asked, yet I'm the obtuse one.

    Yeah, no Manu wouldn't have averaged 37 and 10 in a season. He's too smart for that.

    What I asked you is who do you think would be seen as the better player now if Harden would have stayed all his career as a 6th man in OKC and Manu would have went to become a number one option somewhere.

    I can't decipher whether you're being intentionally obtuse or you're really this dense. I'm saying, I'm able to view things objectively and injuries derailed all of their primes.
    That seems to be a common theme for you, tbh.

    I did, you just don't like the non homer answers. You don't have to actually win the award to be MVP caliber fool.
    Of course, and I ackowledged that in the exact post you quoted. The problem is that when that happens some folks don't seem able to DECIPHER when a player is MVP caliber just taking a backseat in favour of the team.

  19. #119
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    That's not what I asked, yet I'm the obtuse one.

    Yeah, no Manu wouldn't have averaged 37 and 10 in a season. He's too smart for that.

    What I asked you is who do you think would be seen as the better player now if Harden would have stayed all his career as a 6th man in OKC and Manu would have went to become a number one option somewhere.



    That seems to be a common theme for you, tbh.



    Of course, and I ackowledged that in the exact post you quoted. The problem is that when that happens some folks don't seem able to DECIPHER when a player is MVP caliber just taking a backseat in favour of the team.
    By that logic we could play that game with every athlete in history.

    No matter how hard you try to spin this, Harden was the better player and is rightly widely regarded as such.

    Ginobili was not a an MVP caliber player and it wasn't because of the role he was in. I agree he's underrated by non Spurs fans/analytic types, but you overrate him.

  20. #120
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    By that logic we could play that game with every athlete in history.

    No matter how hard you try to spin this, Harden was the better player and is rightly widely regarded as such.

    Ginobili was not a an MVP caliber player and it wasn't because of the role he was in. I agree he's underrated by non Spurs fans/analytic types, but you overrate him.
    Nah bro, you underrate him. I guess Westbrook was a better player than Manu too. Since not only he was an MVP caliber player, he was actually an MVP winner.

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    Nah bro, you underrate him. I guess Westbrook was a better player than Manu too. Since not only he was an MVP caliber player, he was actually an MVP winner.
    Based off of thinking (like any non homer would) that he wasn't as good as a player who was a perennial MVP/All-NBA 1st team candidate for nearly a decade. How dare I.

  22. #122
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    Based off of thinking (like any non homer would) that he wasn't as good as a player who was a perennial MVP/All-NBA 1st team candidate for nearly a decade. How dare I.
    So you are telling me you take Westbrook over Manu?

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    So you are telling me you take Westbrook over Manu?
    More spin. I said it was bizarre to act like it's absurd that I'd take that caliber of player over Ginobili, but despite winning one, Westbrook wasn't on the same level as Harden.

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    More spin. I said it was bizarre to act like it's absurd that I'd take that caliber of player over Ginobili, but despite winning one, Westbrook wasn't on the same level as Harden.
    Why so much beating around the bush to answer a simple question?

    You said Manu Ginobili isn't an MVP caliber player, Westbrook won MVP. Adding 2 + 2 I must infer that you think Westbrook is clearly the better player. Is this correct?

  25. #125
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    Why so much beating around the bush to answer a simple question?

    You said Manu Ginobili isn't an MVP caliber player, Westbrook won MVP. Adding 2 + 2 I must infer that you think Westbrook is clearly the better player. Is this correct?
    Yeah, I didn't say I'd automatically take every player who won an MVP over Ginobili.

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