Why Manu Ginobili Should've Been The 2005 Finals MVP

[DAF86]

you're right ..i love manu but Kobe >>>

And nobody here is saying otherwise. I don't know why cd98 started bringing that up.

[Budkin]

There was nothing like that version of Manu with the long flowing hair going every which way. Obi-wan Ginobili!

[r0drig0lac]

And nobody here is saying otherwise. I don't know why cd98 started bringing that up.

my bad

[cd98]

You're missing the point.

THE POINT was that Manu's 2005 post-season run was as great or better than any of Kobe's. The numbers prove that. Anyone who saw those games, with Manu going bananas against the Nuggets, the Sonics, Nash's Suns, and Detroit could come to the same understanding. Kobe really struggled with those Pistons - Manu tore them up.

So yes, no one is arguing against the opinion that Kobe's career is "grander" than Manu's. But that one run by Manu is rather legendary.

i didn’t confuse that issue. I wasn’t willing to go so far as to say Manu’s 2005 playoff run was on Kobe’s level. Advanced stats don’t tell the whole story. But the thread has been hijacked. It was a great run by Manu and I thought he’d get the MVP after how he played against Detroit. Part of me wanted Tim to get it to add to his accolades and argument that he was the best ever, but he was never going to get that le playing for San Antonio. But that is a different story. Best part of Manu’s run that year was collecting flagrant fouls from all the fools that thought fouling him hard would deter him from taking it to the basket. Loved how he responded to Thuggets and then Sonics. Detroit had respect for Manu.

[DAF86]

i didn’t confuse that issue. I wasn’t willing to go so far as to say Manu’s 2005 playoff run was on Kobe’s level. Advanced stats don’t tell the whole story. But the thread has been hijacked. It was a great run by Manu and I thought he’d get the MVP after how he played against Detroit. Part of me wanted Tim to get it to add to his accolades and argument that he was the best ever, but he was never going to get that le playing for San Antonio. But that is a different story. Best part of Manu’s run that year was collecting flagrant fouls from all the fools that thought fouling him hard would deter him from taking it to the basket. Loved how he responded to Thuggets and then Sonics. Detroit had respect for Manu.

Well then, you shouldn't have started saying this:

Kobe was a much better player. Only Argentina fans will disagree. But the fact that Kobe was better doesn’t mean Manu wasn’t great. He was just a level below Kobe. That’s no shame. Kobe is underrated as an all time great.

When nobody was arguing otherwise.

[Phenomanul]

i didn’t confuse that issue. I wasn’t willing to go so far as to say Manu’s 2005 playoff run was on Kobe’s level. Advanced stats don’t tell the whole story. But the thread has been hijacked. It was a great run by Manu and I thought he’d get the MVP after how he played against Detroit. Part of me wanted Tim to get it to add to his accolades and argument that he was the best ever, but he was never going to get that le playing for San Antonio. But that is a different story. Best part of Manu’s run that year was collecting flagrant fouls from all the fools that thought fouling him hard would deter him from taking it to the basket. Loved how he responded to Thuggets and then Sonics. Detroit had respect for Manu.

But it's not just the advanced stats... Not only were his games dominant - he took the reigns in the clutch that post-season. He ran the team, called the plays and delivered. The only two games where he was "lackluster" were the first two home games at Detroit due to the knee he took by Prince early in Game 3.

I cannot recall a Finals series by Kobe, let alone an entire run that was stamped with a signature increase in the level of his game.

[wildbill2u]

Timmy went through a stretch where his FT shooting became a liability and other teams could use the hack-a-Duncan in the late going. Some folks thought he just choked, but I always attributed it to his shooting form.

[pad300]

IMO, the idea that Manu should have been 2005 Finals MVP is in fact wrong. Look at the boxscores for the games. IIRC, when we won, Tim outplayed or played even with 2 starters combined - Ben and Rasheed. When he didn't do that, we lost. He was our MVP.

[DAF86]

IMO, the idea that Manu should have been 2005 Finals MVP is in fact wrong. Look at the boxscores for the games. IIRC, when we won, Tim outplayed or played even with 2 starters combined - Ben and Rasheed. When he didn't do that, we lost. He was our MVP.

On the games we won:

Tim: 23. 2 ppg - 2 apg - 14.5 rpg - 43 FG%

Manu: 23 ppg - 5.5 apg - 6 rpg - 55 FG%

Raw numbers are pretty even with Manu having the edge on efficiency, I can't find the advanced numbers for these games but they will probably favour Manu by a considerable margin. Like I said, they should have been co-MVP's, but if only one should have got it, Manu was better.

[Chris Fall]

I would have given Ginobili the FMVP too. But to play devils advocate, part of the reason could have been Manu's scoring inconsistency game to game in those Finals. He balled out in games 1, 2, and 7. Was below average scoring in the middle 4 games.

Games 1, 2, 7: 25.3 PPG, 64.9% FG, 72.7% 3PT
Games 3-6: 13.8 PPG, 37.5% FG, 20% 3PT

Now Duncan's scoring efficiency was also inconsistent that series. But actual scoring plus his defense and rebounding was not. Still Ginobili certainly had a strong argument to win it.

[DAF86]

I would have given Ginobili the FMVP too. But to play devils advocate, part of the reason could have been Manu's scoring inconsistency game to game in those Finals. He balled out in games 1, 2, and 7. Was below average scoring in the middle 4 games.

Games 1, 2, 7: 25.3 PPG, 64.9% FG, 72.7% 3PT
Games 3-6: 13.8 PPG, 37.5% FG, 20% 3PT

Now Duncan's scoring efficiency was also inconsistent that series. But actual scoring plus his defense and rebounding was not. Still Ginobili certainly had a strong argument to win it.

Manu had 21 and 10 on game 6, tbh.

[Chris Fall]

I specifically talked about scoring efficiency though.

[spurraider21]

its easy to overanalyze this over a decade later, but in the moment i thought manu was pretty clearly the mvp imho

this is a post-truth america so i can use feelings instead of facts

[bklynspursfan]

I would have given Ginobili the FMVP too. But to play devils advocate, part of the reason could have been Manu's scoring inconsistency game to game in those Finals. He balled out in games 1, 2, and 7. Was below average scoring in the middle 4 games.

Games 1, 2, 7: 25.3 PPG, 64.9% FG, 72.7% 3PT
Games 3-6: 13.8 PPG, 37.5% FG, 20% 3PT

Now Duncan's scoring efficiency was also inconsistent that series. But actual scoring plus his defense and rebounding was not. Still Ginobili certainly had a strong argument to win it.

And in fairness, he was going up against an absolute beast of a defensive front court.

[DAF86]

I specifically talked about scoring efficiency though.

I would have given Ginobili the FMVP too. But to play devils advocate, part of the reason could have been Manu's scoring inconsistency game to game in those Finals. He balled out in games 1, 2, and 7. Was below average scoring in the middle 4 games.

Games 1, 2, 7: 25.3 PPG, 64.9% FG, 72.7% 3PT
Games 3-6: 13.8 PPG, 37.5% FG, 20% 3PT

Now Duncan's scoring efficiency was also inconsistent that series. But actual scoring plus his defense and rebounding was not. Still Ginobili certainly had a strong argument to win it.

[Arcadian]

Duncan led the team in points, rebounds, and blocks (actually led both teams in points and rebounds, with Ben Wallace leading in blocks)...that gets you the MVP every time.

[phxspurfan]

Robert Horry won that ‘ship.


He also won it for us in ‘07

[Chris Fall]

My pardon. But I was in fact specifically talking about scoring efficiency, as I alluded to it in the last paragraph with Duncan comparatively. I thought I had written it with Ginobili as well. I guess I didn't. Apologies. That is what I was specifically referring to though.

[Spurtacular]

????

People that don’t acknowledge Kobe’s greatness don’t know anything about basketball. Sure he was selfish and obsessed with being 23, but I have been a Spurs fan since the late 80s as a kid, and no player in the NBA was I more afraid of with the Spurs up by 20 than Kobe. He was the real deal and if he hadn’t been a Laker, he’d have gotten more respect on this site.

His "greatness" has already been over-acknowledged. Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, T-Mac could all have been multi-ring winners in similar cir stances. His efficiency numbers were never great. His defense was never anything. What's left? He had some big games and great athleticism, sure. He was a poor man's Michael Jordan at the end of the day. That's not nothing either; but it is what it is. And I'd say circa 04-08, come playoff time, there was no bigger playoff performer than Manu.

[TD 21]

He didn't deserve it, but he definitely had a case. Don't forget though, this was pre advanced stats and before the concept of anyone but the clear cut best player on the team winning it. Even if that's not the spirit of the award (which should be playoffs, as opposed to Finals MVP), I'm okay with that since that player is most responsible for being in that position to begin with.

What almost always gets overlooked with Duncan in that series, is 1) he played with sprained ankles, 2) he did so against an all time great defensive front line, 3) his ability to draw and pass out of double teams, defense and rebounding were crucial.

[Arcadian]

He didn't deserve it, but he definitely had a case. Don't forget though, this was pre advanced stats and before the concept of anyone but the clear cut best player on the team winning it. Even if that's not the spirit of the award (which should be playoffs, as opposed to Finals MVP), I'm okay with that since that player is most responsible for being in that position to begin with.

What almost always gets overlooked with Duncan in that series, is 1) he played with sprained ankles, 2) he did so against an all time great defensive front line, 3) his ability to draw and pass out of double teams, defense and rebounding were crucial.

Exactly. Much of Manu's success was due to defenses focusing on Duncan. And despite those ankles, he still outplayed Wallace & Wallace.

[Play Boban]

I’m so damn disgusted by how Manu was robbed in ‘05 tbh.

[DAF86]

Exactly. Much of Manu's success was due to defenses focusing on Duncan. And despite those ankles, he still outplayed Wallace & Wallace.

That's one of the biggest bull arguments that has ever been created and people just repeat it without thinking. And I'm not even talking about Manu in particular, I'm talking about any secondary option in the history of the sport.

How the can Manu success come from the attention Duncan got when pretty much all of Manu's damage came from plays where he was the ball handler on pick and roll situations? C'mon sons, stop repeating outdated takes like mindless parrots and start thinking for yourselves.

And if you're thinking for yourselves, start thinking right. Bull XX century comments don't fly anymore on the year 2018.

[ducks]

Ducks was on record he wished he did

[Mikeanaro]

Stop this gotry, Manu at 40 is a real man, Kobe at 35 was in a wheelchair.
Manu is a team player, not a ballhogger who is also the biggest choke artist in history.
Manu is better than Kobe, deal with it.