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Ah, the lovely can of worms.
You want to open it, I can do that.
I can get to the drivel in the OP, but, give me one quick easy answer first:
Is killing children evil?
http://www.monergism.com/blog/common...ery- phobia
Visitor: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Why don't we talk about the old testament?. Why don't you explain to me all the stories of the old testament. Oh wait that's right we don't talk about the old testament because it's full of rape, murder, slavery, phobia, & god murdering people &making people sacrifice their Children. And why is it not in the 10 commandments that we shall not rape or own people as slaves. Please Rape all you want & treat humans & women as if they were dirt but don't say the lord's name in vein or he'll get upset.
Response: Thank you for your comment. Appreciate your participation ...
To answer your question about God's willingness ... God is willing and he has defeated evil in the Person of Jesus Christ. God Himself came in the flesh to absorb the full punishment for the evil perpetrated by humans, so that all those who are united to Him would have eternal life. That is the WHOLE POINT OF CHRISTIANITY. God is willing to do something about the evil... even deliver, love and forgive the perpetrators of it, like me. There is no greater love or willingness than this. We may undergo fleeting, momentary suffering now, but it is as nothing.compared to when this moment in the present age is past ... it will be as if it were a small scratch .. God has a purpose and uses the evil of men to achieve a greater ultimate good which outweighs them all. But many who only see the suffering of the moment, which is very real, will be unable to see past it ... but in Jesus all that is wrong will be made right.
Next, you realize you are making a moral argument against God? Please do not fail to see the irony in this. What standard are you appealing to to demonstrate to us that your morality is the right one? It seems to me that you are making up morality, as you go, according to your own self-declared authority and requiring the rest of us to abide by it. (i.e.. that somehow God is immoral for specific acts?) Immoral according to who? You? Since you seem to know what is objectively right and wrong youalready demonstrate a belief in a transcendent God who has revealed himself. Otherwise, unless you know what is actually moral and immoral, telling us how God should behave is utterly incoherent and unintelligible. Therefore, your so-called proof against God is self-defeating. For in it you acknowledge there is such a thing as objective evil that exists. In order for there to be objective evil you have to appeal to some objective standard outside of yourself that everyone is subject to. But whose standard are you appealing to that you would call objective? If there is no God you cannot call anything good or evil ... all is relative and so you cannot consistently complain about anyone else's standards no matter how much they may offend you.
Lastly, I would encourage you to learn more about Christianity and especially the Old Testament if your are going to argue against it. It seems you are quite misinformed about it and have created many straw man arguments... ideas that neither Christians nor the Jews of the OT ever believed... Learning things 3rd hand from media or classroom is susceptible to propaganda ... so if you want to debate, first represent the facts of your opponent clearly and accurately:
1) Chattel slavery (the buying and selling of captured slaves) was not only not encouraged, but was punishable by death in the OT (Exodus 21:16). What you are calling slavery in the OT was indentured servitude.. people paying off debts, contractual agreements between two parties etc... Also in Israel, they were to grant their servants release every seventh year with all debts forgiven (Leviticus 25:35--43). There were no prisons at the time and paying for your crimes through service was also a form of res ution. The isralites were actually commonly told by God to to treat outsiders well, remembering that they themselves were slaves in Egypt.
2) Sacrifice of children: You have got this backwards. God never had the people of Israel sacrifice their children. In fact, this detestable practice was one of the main reasons God had Israel remove the previous occupants from the land (Deut 18:9-14)
3) phobia? sexual practice was just one among many, many sins that were punishable by death in the old testament. So was sacrificing your son or daughter in the fire, divination, worshipping any god other than the true God .. all of these and many more were punishable by death. No one singled out sexuality more than any of these other sins. Truth be told, we have all committed sin worthy of death, I will be the first to raise my hand to acknowledge my complicity in rebellion against God... but thanks be to God, Jesus, when I was ill-deserving, still bore the penalty for them ...
The death penalty is still active for all the sins of the Old Testament... They have not been done away with, just delayed. Jesus delays the punishment for them until He returns to rule the world. Now is a time of mercy where we call all people everywhere to repentance and faith in Christ for complete forgiveness and all who ally themselves with Him, no matter how bad, including sexuals ... and amazingly even includes people like me who has committed much worse sins than that .... Fact is the Bible would only be phobic if God told us to exclude sexuals from the gospel, (while freeing everyone else from captivity). You may reject the message but it s anything but phobic. In reality, because the message of the Bible is true, Christians are really the only ones who love sexuals and other alienated peoples.
4) Rape was never condoned in the Old or New Testament, but punished. In OT law, the rapist, if caught and seen by witnesses, would (at least) have to pay res ution for the whole life of the woman who was raped. (btw, contrary to your assertion, the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th commandments thouroughly cover both rape and chattel slavery).
5) Your comments about women are astounding. Women were treated better by Israel than any nation of their time. It is a myth, created out of the air, that women are treated like dirt by the God for the bible. In fact, when compared with the current culture in America, the bible accords women with the highest possible respect. In the present day, Americans routinely and openly objectify and demean women every chance they get .... and then sadly openly lie to women to make it socially/politically/legally acceptable for women to sacrifice their own children (ironically something you accused the bible of doing). All of these practices are condemend by the Bible. Women deserve our respect. Nothing less is acceptable or biblical.
Note: Remember also that the people of the Old Testament were often called stiff-necked because of their continued sin. Just because you can find plenty of examples of people in the Old Testament behaving badly does not mean God condones it. The universality of sin simply demonstrates our desperate need as humans for mercy, to which God summons and offers all in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Ah, the lovely can of worms.
You want to open it, I can do that.
I can get to the drivel in the OP, but, give me one quick easy answer first:
Is killing children evil?
If you use bears, it's tough love.
is letting them grow up in this obamanation not worse than killing them?
What's the point of posting this? Are you implying that you agree with the response?
One would assume so.
This is not new material, but probably new to snc. Believers see this, confirmation bias kicks in, and it certainly sounds reasonable enough if you don't think much about it, which most don't, as is the nature of apologetics.
It is fun to shred some of this stuff, because the intellectual contortions you have to make to either think it up or think it is logical are readily obvious.
As I said... a lovely can of worms.
You will notice that my first question got no response, and that should surprise no one. I will hammer away at it, until SNC admits that he thinks killing children is not evil. Killing children is something that he fully supports, although he doesn't know it yet.
oh stfu RG...i hate this bible beating bull just as much as the next person, but get off your welfare soapbox. Kids aren't being killed or starved in this country, you bleeding
The same pretentious poster as always. It's funny how you operate. I can only imagine how you think you come across in your posts. How about you focus on article before trolling? Then we can play the 'personal belief" game. Blake I thought it interesting.
lol this article is so full of . you can quote Leviticus and refute what he claims isn't in there. We have been rubbing the local thumpers nose in the verses for years now around here. i especially liked the part where s punishment was being delayed and jesus was just going to get them in the afterlife. silly christian.
I think it's a typical crazy response from a Christian nut.
no . That's why the question was asked to begin with.... sexual practice was just one among many, many sins that were punishable by death in the old testament.......
I guess it sounds pretentious, but I don't find whether or not I sound pretentious to be a useful idea. The underlying truth or strength of the arguments really isn't effected by whether I may come off as an asshole occasionally. , I will be a big enough man to admit I am not the most polite of people at times. I generally try not to be an asshole, and I backspace over snarky, irritated comments all the time.
I am not a troll, though. The question you regard as trolling is pretty much on topic for the OP that you seem to think is worth posting. The answer to that question is central to my response to the article.
If you want to be a pussy, and not answer it, fine. I will get to that question as central to a consideration or your posted eventually.
What is trolling, is posting some in an OP, and then not having the intellectual honesty to really defend it. "ha-ha, look what I posted jerks... bye". I think that would meet most people's definition of trolling. It will be interesting to see how long you stick around to defend your own OP. Let's just say I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to respond.
No, not really.
God's actions, or inactions rather, arguably favor evil.
I would not consider the human sacrifice of Jesus to "be doing something" about evil, even were I to accept that it actually happened.
It would be a lot easier if those opponents were honest, and could honestly state their own facts. This guy... is not, and does not. I would point out I have directly read the bible several times.
Let's get to his first point:
, one pre-packaged bit of bull , get a pre-packaged response:1) Chattel slavery (the buying and selling of captured slaves) was not only not encouraged, but was punishable by death in the OT (Exodus 21:16). What you are calling slavery in the OT was indentured servitude.. people paying off debts, contractual agreements between two parties etc... Also in Israel, they were to grant their servants release every seventh year with all debts forgiven (Leviticus 25:35--43). There were no prisons at the time and paying for your crimes through service was also a form of res ution. The isralites were actually commonly told by God to to treat outsiders well, remembering that they themselves were slaves in Egypt.
Pretty much already dealt with.Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.
Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. [PERMANENT SLAVERY, NOT INDENTURED SERVITUDE-RG] (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Further, the "indentured servant" language used to pin this apology on, only applies to fellow Jews. If they are not jew, they have no chance of freedom:
Personally I don't find the "indentured servant" and "slave" distinction useful. Both are immoral. If the Bible says it is ok, then the Bible is wrong, and so is "Bible God", since he is the one supposedly laying down the laws.
My moral system is superior, therefore, in at least this one regard.
Last edited by RandomGuy; 02-13-2014 at 02:01 PM.
"learn more about Christianity and especially the Old Testament"
Christ was a revolutionary, a disruptive, all-inclusive love-thrower.
The OT was rendered obsolete, full of hate, vengeance, murder, genocide, eye-for-an-eye violence, the divisiveness of tribalism, etc, etc.
Christ even went violently OWS on the money-changers in the temple.
Christians OBSESSED with the OT, obviously PREFERRING it to the NT, have got Christ and Christianity ALL WRONG.
I see you have me in the crushing grip of reason.
Well played, sir.
Your response had nothing to do with disproving his truthfulness. You even said yourself that these are just different interpretations.
Are you stating that God is real, but is wrong?
Personally I don't find the "indentured servant" and "slave" distinction useful. Both are immoral. If the Bible says it is ok, then the Bible is wrong, and so is "Bible God", since he is the one supposedly laying down the laws.
My moral system is superior, therefore, in at least this one regard.
How did you get your moral system?
"You even said yourself that these are just different interpretations."
Interpreting the Bible is indeed a problem, but far beside my point. The response is dishonest, because it leaves out the parts that directly contradict his statements. That is either dishonest or stupid. I noticed you glanced right over them and didn't address them. Here is one of the more important ones, you can give me your interpretation. There are others we can get to.
If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. [PERMANENT SLAVERY, NOT INDENTURED SERVITUDE-RG] (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
"Are you stating that God is real, but is wrong?
How did you get your moral system?"
I am not stating Bible God is real, no. I am stating that Bible God would be wrong, were he to exist, which has yet to be demonstrated.
I have my moral system from reason and empathy, the same place you get yours. You certainly don't get your moral system from the Bible, because it isn't an actual system, although you are probably not consciously aware of this yet.
So you spent time and effort to feel a particular way, or have a particular view about something you think to be non-existent? You keep emphasizing Bible God. Are you saying you believe in intelligent design, just not the Jewish/Christian/Muslim one?
so cultural norms have nothing to do with your moral system? You're the lone wolf eh?I have my moral system from reason and empathy, the same place you get yours. You certainly don't get your moral system from the Bible, because it isn't an actual system, although you are probably not consciously aware of this yet.
I noticed you haven't bothered defending your OP, or even answered what I think is a fair question, given the material.
Do you expect me to keep answering your questions without any reciprocity?
I don't mind, but if that is really what you wanted, you should be a bit more up front about it. If you purpose is to simply pick my brain, and want to understand my viewpoint, I am ok with that.
If you want a logical analysis of the statements in the OP, I can do that as well, as I have already started to do. We may be able to find points of agreeent.
Let me know what you are trying to do here, as it isn't overly clear to me.
The "is killing children evil?" question is reminding me of something some jeeb would say in opposition to abortion.
Yeah, the jeebs that say that usually are ignorant of the bear story in the Bible.
I don't see why me defending the op has anything to do with the merit of the op. It's not my op. Nor my views. I found it interesting. Not much more than that.
I don't have a game plan. If you would like to start analyzing logically, go ahead.I don't mind, but if that is really what you wanted, you should be a bit more up front about it. If you purpose is to simply pick my brain, and want to understand my viewpoint, I am ok with that.
If you want a logical analysis of the statements in the OP, I can do that as well, as I have already started to do. We may be able to find points of agreeent.
Let me know what you are trying to do here, as it isn't overly clear to me.
young lads is a terrible translation ontop of a translation ontop of a bad translation. the word they used for children was a definition for a young man. Some say late 20's to early 30's, children would have required a guide with them outside the city. 'little' was in reference to their beliefs.
some say that another says another thing. you have used a bunch of qualitative descriptions. show me something the original greek and examples of it being used to describe what is obviously what you claim. something like that.
you just sound like you are giving a canned answer. KJV and NIV both say children and little children. this one says young lads but that is a worse translation? the definition you give is young man? reeks of sophistry. there are plenty other examples of god being a baby killer.
what semantic qualifications you have against the NIV this time
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