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  1. #76
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    From Patty's perspective, you almost wonder why he doesn't ask for a trade. Pop must have already promised him the rafters.
    Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?

  2. #77
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?
    A chip. Or at least a decent shot at one. He is only untouchable from Pop's perspective. With all the emphasis on 3s and Patty's having a very good year, I truly wonder why he hasn't asked to be traded to a contender. I hadn't ever really looked at things from his perspective...

  3. #78
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    Depends - if they aren’t paying Jakob anyways? And it leads to ability to really re tool? I can see it.

    Also hoopshype says Carroll only guaranteed 1.5M next year but others reporting fully guaranteed
    That's interesting on Carroll, I was under the impression that the $1.5 was for the 3rd year (I thought we gave him a 3rd year). Hopefully I was wrong.

    On Mills, I'm pretty sure he has positive value. I think he even has value here if we would move Forbes. He's not a bad fit when surrounded by wings that defend. He just doesn't need to be on the court with other defensive liabilities (Forbes-Belli).

  4. #79
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    Depends - if they aren’t paying Jakob anyways? And it leads to ability to really re tool? I can see it.

    Also hoopshype says Carroll only guaranteed 1.5M next year but others reporting fully guaranteed
    IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.

  5. #80
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    That's interesting on Carroll, I was under the impression that the $1.5 was for the 3rd year (I thought we gave him a 3rd year). Hopefully I was wrong.

    On Mills, I'm pretty sure he has positive value. I think he even has value here if we would move Forbes. He's not a bad fit when surrounded by wings that defend. He just doesn't need to be on the court with other defensive liabilities (Forbes-Belli).
    Yes. The roster is constructed poorly.

    Yes - again - this isn't changing until Poop is gone.

  6. #81
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.
    Yeah think you’re correct. Just one site had conflicting info but think they just got their years wrong

  7. #82
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Ugh. You don't trade away players because they're bad. You trade for players/assets you need. The Spurs trading Poeltl or any other player folks like isn't them punishing him or saying they prefer to keep Forbes or whatever. It's them saying that they really needed that return and the player was the best way to get it. It's possible that Jakob is the only player teams are willing to offer an okay first for. If the Spurs are rebuilding, then it doesn't matter that Poeltl is a serviceable young big. If they are still trying to make a run, it's only going to happen because LMA plays out of his mind. In either event, you can justify using him as part of the package. That doesn't mean that there aren't trades that wouldn't make sense or that PATFO wouldn't make a bad trade. But everyone on the roster is available for the right deal, not just ing Beli and Forbes and Carroll.

    That said, I'm not a fan of trading for Russell, and he's the only possible target I've heard. I just don't think he's good enough. But I could see GS loving Poeltl enough to want him to be part of a Russell package, and that might give SA leverage to grab something of decent value from the team that actually acquires DAR like Covington, Culver, Winslow or Herro. If it's one the young wings, I could totally understand it, because the none of the young players is performing well enough to preclude the team acquiring someone at their position. I could see something like Poeltl and a top-10 protected first for Culver being a legit move to get top talent, and if it causes the team to fall apart and get their own top-10 pick, then the club could add much higher upside guys than just a solidly above-average but low-minute center.

  8. #83
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    Ugh. You don't trade away players because they're bad. You trade for players/assets you need. The Spurs trading Poeltl or any other player folks like isn't them punishing him or saying they prefer to keep Forbes or whatever. It's them saying that they really needed that return and the player was the best way to get it. It's possible that Jakob is the only player teams are willing to offer an okay first for. If the Spurs are rebuilding, then it doesn't matter that Poeltl is a serviceable young big. If they are still trying to make a run, it's only going to happen because LMA plays out of his mind. In either event, you can justify using him as part of the package. That doesn't mean that there aren't trades that wouldn't make sense or that PATFO wouldn't make a bad trade. But everyone on the roster is available for the right deal, not just ing Beli and Forbes and Carroll.

    That said, I'm not a fan of trading for Russell, and he's the only possible target I've heard. I just don't think he's good enough. But I could see GS loving Poeltl enough to want him to be part of a Russell package, and that might give SA leverage to grab something of decent value from the team that actually acquires DAR like Covington, Culver, Winslow or Herro. If it's one the young wings, I could totally understand it, because the none of the young players is performing well enough to preclude the team acquiring someone at their position. I could see something like Poeltl and a top-10 protected first for Culver being a legit move to get top talent, and if it causes the team to fall apart and get their own top-10 pick, then the club could add much higher upside guys than just a solidly above-average but low-minute center.
    Trading Poeltl for something of value is fine and I don't think most would be against that, it's just the idea of attaching him to get rid of a player that doesn't make much sense.

  9. #84
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Let me be clear: me pondering that was not an endorsement. It was wondering if SA is going to go that path IF clearing books was the goal.

  10. #85
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    I posted in another thread - there's a story that the Spurs have been listening to offers for Jakob, but their asking price is too high. If it's even true, that says that they're thinking they will pay to keep him. If they were going to lose him to free agency, they would be better off dealing him. But if someone is willing to overpay, they would ship him.

  11. #86
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Let me be clear: me pondering that was not an endorsement. It was wondering if SA is going to go that path IF clearing books was the goal.

    Don't bother. The word "if" has no meaning. Speculating about something means you're saying you want it to happen.

  12. #87
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Don't bother. The word "if" has no meaning. Speculating about something means you're saying you want it to happen.
    Is that just a general musing about ST mentality? Because I really don’t feel strongly about using Jakob to dump players

    I wouldn’t be mad; this team if they aren’t going to blow it up need a lot of flexibility to reshape the team but I’d rather obtain assets vs dump them

  13. #88
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    I posted in another thread - there's a story that the Spurs have been listening to offers for Jakob, but their asking price is too high. If it's even true, that says that they're thinking they will pay to keep him. If they were going to lose him to free agency, they would be better off dealing him. But if someone is willing to overpay, they would ship him.
    Good point about planning on keeping him. Now if you read a companion article about the Spurs entertaining offers for LMA, please let me be the first to know.

  14. #89
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Is that just a general musing about ST mentality? Because I really don’t feel strongly about using Jakob to dump players

    I wouldn’t be mad; this team if they aren’t going to blow it up need a lot of flexibility to reshape the team but I’d rather obtain assets vs dump them
    Yes. General ing.

    I don't mind a whole of a lot anymore, except that I want them to pick a direction. Nothing is going to change unless something changes. But I'd like to see something that looks like a coordinated plan instead of patchwork.

  15. #90
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Yes. General ing.

    I don't mind a whole of a lot anymore, except that I want them to pick a direction. Nothing is going to change unless something changes. But I'd like to see something that looks like a coordinated plan instead of patchwork.
    Agreed. I have my preferences, but I understand wanting to be a playoff team. But if that’s the case they need to start building a better team.
    Last edited by DPG21920; 02-04-2020 at 09:16 PM.

  16. #91
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Trading Poeltl for something of value is fine and I don't think most would be against that, it's just the idea of attaching him to get rid of a player that doesn't make much sense.
    They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

    I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.

  17. #92
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

    I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.
    Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.

  18. #93
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.

    That's correct in principle. Carroll was signed for 3 years at a guaranteed total of $15 million, at the time of signing. The year-by-year salary structure is:

    2019-20 $7 mil
    2020-21 $6.650 mil
    2021-22 $7 mil

    That adds up to more than 15 mil, which means that $1.35 mil of the 3rd year is guaranteed.

    However, the figure for the third year does have significance. If Carroll is not waived before 6/24/'21, the team will owe him the full 7 for the 3rd year. The 3rd year is fully guaranteed if he is not waived, in other words. It's a provision for, "if you keep me, you pay me."

  19. #94
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

    I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.
    I agree. As for what I'm seeing right now, Carroll would most likely get the Spurs a Center back (Ed Davis if he goes to the Jazz, Rob Lo if it's the Bucks), so trading Poeltl for a forward would make sense if that forward is good enough to start. I'd be very interested in John Collins, as the Hawks put him on the block.

    I also said in another thread that I could see something like White, Gay, Beli, Forbes and a 1st for D-Lo, Burks and Smailagic. I think the Dubs would be alright with that and it would get them under the tax. Gay and White would be valuable rotation pieces going forward and they can let Forbes and Beli walk to shed more salary or resign them with bird rights. Spurs would get a legit starting PG and a 3-and-D SG. Russell is also younger than White

    Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.
    cap space won't do nothing for this team, the next free agent class is garbage and role players will get massively overpaid. Spurs need to aggressively improve the roster through trades
    Last edited by RC_Drunkford; 02-04-2020 at 09:17 PM.

  20. #95
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    I agree. As for what I'm seeing right now, Carroll would most likely get the Spurs a Center back (Ed Davis if he goes to the Jazz, Rob Lo if it's the Bucks), so trading Poeltl for a forward would make sense if that forward is good enough to start. I'd be very interested in John Collins, as the Hawks put him on the block.

    I also said in another thread that I could see something like White, Gay, Beli, Forbes and a 1st for D-Lo, Burks and Smailagic. I think the Dubs would be alright with that and it would get them under the tax. Gay and White would be valuable rotation pieces going forward and they can let Forbes and Beli walk to shed more salary or resign them with bird rights. Spurs would get a legit starting PG and a 3-and-D SG. Russell is also younger than White



    cap space won't do nothing for this team, the next free agent class is garbage and role players will get massively overpaid. Spurs need to aggressively improve the roster through trades
    Well, you can only do what you can do with what is in front of you. You can’t force trades and the assets SA has are somewhat tough unless you start talking picks and youth. SA hasn’t shown an inclination they are willing to do that.

    So to me, if they “stay compe ive” that means cap space and doing the best you can with flexibility (plus allowing youth to blossom). Having flexibility can mean a lot more than just signing FA as well. It opens up the path for trades being able to absorb salary etc..(which you know)

  21. #96
    Derrick White fanboy FkLA's Avatar
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    If White is traded I quit.

  22. #97
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Well, you can only do what you can do with what is in front of you. You can’t force trades and the assets SA has are somewhat tough unless you start talking picks and youth. SA hasn’t shown an inclination they are willing to do that.

    So to me, if they “stay compe ive” that means cap space and doing the best you can with flexibility (plus allowing youth to blossom). Having flexibility can mean a lot more than just signing FA as well. It opens up the path for trades being able to absorb salary etc..(which you know)
    True. But that's what I'm saying. The youth here is not a bunch of All-Stars, they are expendable if the return is right.

    Like if you move Poeltl for Collins you got a super young power forward with All-Star potential locked in on a rookie deal until 2022. He could start right away at a position of need that would improve the starting line up. And he comes from a military family, so he'd fit the culture around here too. You can then flip Carroll for a back up Center.

    The team would be better and you'll still have the same amount of young players going forward. If you want Russell you can ship out one of Murray/White. I think that + a draft pick and some shooters would be enough for the Dubs to bite.

    D-Lo is better than Murray or White. A lot better. While also being the same age as Murray and younger than White. And he'd be a legit 3rd option next to Aldridge and DeRozan.

    If you make those moves the youth remains while the team gets significantly better. The lack of aggressiveness from this FO is disturbing to me.

  23. #98
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    They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

    I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.
    I agree with that. Cap space this offseason would be nice but it's not worth giving up real assets to acquire. I also understand that you have to give something of value to get something of value. In my businesses I do that all the time. I do implement a strategy where I try to acquire properties that I think are undervalued in the current market where I can get more out of them than others can get. As it relates to this roster I don't see anyone who should be off limits. I would just personally like to see the FO make moves that seem coherent (i.e. moves that show we have chosen a direction) where we are either cashing in assets to win now or selling established assets for young assets with the potential to mature into valuable pieces in the future.

  24. #99
    OH YOU LIKE IT!!! slick'81's Avatar
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    Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?

    Yup , retire comfortably a spur and the spurs have taken care of him

  25. #100
    You Are Not Worthy ZeusWillJudge's Avatar
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    Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.

    That's one of a post. From appearances and history, it's likely the "plan" is to stay the course and just make adjustments. If there was reason to think they would blow it up, it changes everything.

    Cap space absolutely WILL play a big part. They have been in cap for so long, and won't get out until 21-22. But if they pay to keep DDR, Poeltl, and Forbes they will have a lot of that space committed ahead of time. You can't build a team without managing the timing of contracts along with everything else.

    Personally, I don't think they can build a team around Aldridge - even partly around Aldridge. He's aging, and I believe that he will go elsewhere when this contract is up. A lot of people will scream, but the DDR we have seen for the last month is worth building around. He is what he is, and he has some holes in his game, but put the right pieces around this DeRozan and he's a strong building block. They have some good young players, but they don't have another piece ready to step up to that right now.

    So I think they either have to build around DDR - which means specific pieces to complement him, or blow it up. Keeping Aldridge is self-defeating, and keeping DeRozan without the right players around him is just as bad. And since the young guys are pretty redundant, yeah, they need to be open to trading them.

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