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  1. #526
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    Keldon was the first I mentioned.

  2. #527
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but he doesn't shoot. Is a liability in a close game because of his FT%. I think this probably more than Chip can fix. Add the huge contract
    More likely than not, which is why I only support buying low on Simmons. If I thought Chip would fix his shot I'd say just give Morey his four picks because Simmons with a jumpshot would be a yearly top 3 MVP candidate.

  3. #528
    Veteran Spurs9's Avatar
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    We need tspense to drop us some Simmons early info.

  4. #529
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    More likely than not, which is why I only support buying low on Simmons. If I thought Chip would fix his shot I'd say just give Morey his four picks because Simmons with a jumpshot would be a yearly top 3 MVP candidate.
    Therein lies the attraction. I'm trying to think of players who became adequate shooters after being essentially non shooters at this stage in their career. Avery Johnson became a decent jump shooter by 98 and 99,but he had a very different mentality

  5. #530
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    We need tspense to drop us some Simmons early info.
    Tspense is folklore.

  6. #531
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Therein lies the attraction. I'm trying to think of players who became adequate shooters after being essentially non shooters at this stage in their career. Avery Johnson became a decent jump shooter by 98 and 99,but he had a very different mentality
    Jason kidd is the biggest one I know.

  7. #532
    Veteran Maddog's Avatar
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    Jason kidd is the biggest one I know.
    That's a decent exception, however by age 24 he was hitting mid .700s on FT and >.300 on 3s.
    Simmons is 25 and not shown any improvement in either taking shots or making them
    It's reallytempting to go after him, if you could get him to shoot adequately he's an MVP candidate, but there is no indication that will happen..

  8. #533
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    Injuries can happen. This is exactly what Chinook meant I think. His logic is not flawed at all.
    No its not the same as the top 10 pick is with simmons being healthy. They were getting top 10 picks because they were injured. We would be getting a top 10 pick with our players healthy. If it was talking about protections for the top 10 in case he got injured that would be similar as because both sides would think we would be not in the top 10.

  9. #534
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    No its not the same as the top 10 pick is with simmons being healthy. They were getting top 10 picks because they were injured. We would be getting a top 10 pick with our players healthy. If it was talking about protections for the top 10 in case he got injured that would be similar as because both sides would think we would be not in the top 10.
    You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

    So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.

  10. #535
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    The difference with Jason Kidd and AJ with Ben Simmons is that they are compe or with strong mental strength. Simmons becomes so affected that he does not even dare to attempt to score in the 4th Q in 3 playoff games. In 4th Q of the 7 games with the Hawks he has a total of 4fga.

  11. #536
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    You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

    So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.
    We were not even talking about protecting picks originally. If we did the simmions trade Picks should be protected heavily. That way when he does nothing for us we still have our pick.

  12. #537
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    You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

    So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.
    We were not even talking about protecting picks originally. If we did the simmions trade Picks should be protected heavily. That way when he does nothing for us we still have our pick.

  13. #538
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Have people brought up a potential three team trade between Philly, Phoenix, and San Antonio?

    Spurs Get:

    Ben Simmons
    Dario Saric

    Philly Gets:

    Murray
    Walker
    Jalen Smith
    2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
    2024 Spurs top 5 protected 1st
    2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)

    Phoenix Gets:

    Thad Young
    madness. insanity.

  14. #539
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    Your probably one of the anti-Benners on here, which is cool.

    I’m open to the trade for him, though, i do think the draft capital for Spurs is high in this scenario. Otherwise the framework makes a lot of sense.

  15. #540
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    What realistic dates should Spurs fans watch for when we can see a possible trade for Simmons? (I highly suspect they are lining up the picks/players to get it done). Sept 9 when Primo can be included? Before Oct 4 Pre-Season? I don’t really see the benefits of Sixers delaying further, hurting them more as days pass.

  16. #541
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    I'm with you. He's owed way too much money and has serious flaws in his game.

  17. #542
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Your probably one of the anti-Benners on here, which is cool.

    I’m open to the trade for him, though, i do think the draft capital for Spurs is high in this scenario. Otherwise the framework makes a lot of sense.
    I would much rather do just SA and PHI directly and trade Thad to PHX to recoup a pick. I dont think that Jalen Smith would make or break the deal for PHI and if the picks are as you described from SA?

    They would definitely need to use Thad to recoup a pick (or send instead of one of their own).

    I am not a fan of giving 3 firsts (which giving Thad who would likely net SA a 1st on his own + our 2 picks) and Murray/Lonnie and having to eat Sarics deal.

  18. #543
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

    Simmons,, Jones
    White, Forbes, Primo
    Walker, McDermott
    Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
    Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

    That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

    Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a le? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from ing sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.

  19. #544
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

    Simmons,, Jones
    White, Forbes, Primo
    Walker, McDermott
    Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
    Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

    That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

    Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a le? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from ing sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.
    I am fine with this more than the other one since we don’t eat Saric, keep Lonnie and only give up one actual Spurs pick vs 2. My only beef is Vassell. I am pretty high on him. I am not so high on Simmons personally.

    But this type of package seems like the right type.

    I personally would be fighting to keep all the youth except Murray out although ultimately you are correct; if SA likes Simmons and truly believes in him keeping one more young player won’t be franchise altering. Especially if they only give up one of their own picks (and can protect it).

    But I would love to swap Jakob for Vassell here…to me that would be the perfect trade: Murray/Jakob/Thad/Chi 1st/SA 22’nd

    Ultimately I personally prefer they do no trade for Simmons though. I would understand it if they do and it’s in this type of deal, but I would prefer they do not.

    The question for me is if they did the trade and if Simmons didn’t work out - do we think SA would be able to recoup one or two of the firsts they gave up by flipping Simmons to another team?
    Last edited by DPG21920; 09-05-2021 at 03:12 PM.

  20. #545
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    I'm keeping vassell over walker. That kid is going to be a glue guy his whole career.

  21. #546
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

    Simmons,, Jones
    White, Forbes, Primo
    Walker, McDermott
    Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
    Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

    That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

    Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a le? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from ing sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.
    Meh that's a lot to give up to someone forced to sell. If the Spurs are giving up two firsts and Vassel then Aminu can be the salary cap fodder. Plus if the Spurs are getting Simmons it's not a tank year, so I want Young to either start or be a sixth man.
    Last edited by baseline bum; 09-05-2021 at 04:13 PM.

  22. #547
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Meh that's a lot to give up to someone forced to sell. If the Spurs are giving up two firsts and Vassel then Aminu can be the salary cap fodder. Plus if the Spurs are getting Simmons it's not a tank year, so I want Young to either start or be a sixth man.
    Yeah I’m with you. White, Aminu, one of Vassell,
    Walker or Sammy and a protected first is all I’m offering. They will get better away i’m sure but Simmons is more Westbrook than James Harden.

  23. #548
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    Yeah I’m with you. White, Aminu, one of Vassell,
    Walker or Sammy and a protected first is all I’m offering. They will get better away i’m sure but Simmons is more Westbrook than James Harden.
    No way I'm offering White, he could actually play with Simmons. Murray is who Philly can have in trade. They can have Walker if they want, I don't give a crap about keeping him, he's trash. Samanic I'd like to keep to see if he can do this year but if it's a sticking point I'd ship him out too.

  24. #549
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    No way I'm offering White, he could actually play with Simmons. Murray is who Philly can have in trade. They can have Walker if they want, I don't give a crap about keeping him, he's trash. Samanic I'd like to keep to see if he can do this year but if it's a sticking point I'd ship him out too.
    White is older, injury prone and owed more money. If we go after Simmons I’d hope there is appe e to add more scoring at the 2/3 (like a Beal, Lavine, CJ) such that DJ and Simmons could play together and wreak havoc on the defensive end.

  25. #550
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    All this talk about weaknesses, preference, timeline, etc. misses the point. Unless you're in a glamour market and sometimes even then, you don't get to pick the who or the when of your superstars and stars and as Chinook has said, it's not realistic to expect to draft and develop all of the next ones, especially for an organization opposed to a full scale re-build.

    Even if it is a flawed, complimentary type, this might be their only realistic chance to trade for one for the foreseeable future because other teams have better assets to beat them out when the more desirable ones come available and/or they'll have the contractual leverage to dissuade non glamour markets.



    Based on that, I think the Spurs have a great chance of getting him. I think it will come down to the number of attached picks though.
    Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.


    Have people brought up a potential three team trade between Philly, Phoenix, and San Antonio?

    Spurs Get:

    Ben Simmons
    Dario Saric

    Philly Gets:

    Murray
    Walker
    Jalen Smith
    2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
    2024 Spurs top 5 protected 1st
    2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)

    Phoenix Gets:

    Thad Young
    I've brought up similar variations. I'd be steadfast on protecting top one throughout and would prefer a '25 1st to a '24 1st because of the possibility of the Bulls '25 1st.

    Outside of that, I agree it's not that much when factoring in the likelihood of those picks becoming mid-lateish lottery ones.


    I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed.
    I'd rather give up a Walker IV and a lesser 1st (like the Suns protected '24) than Vassell, who's importance would increase exponentially with an expedited timeline.

    The question for me is if they did the trade and if Simmons didn’t work out - do we think SA would be able to recoup one or two of the firsts they gave up by flipping Simmons to another team?
    Presuming relative health, of course.
    Last edited by TD 21; 09-05-2021 at 05:42 PM.

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