Lakers: How come noone ever said Kobe could be better than MJ or even as good?

[Clipper Nation]

pass1st thinks Kobe > Jordan

[Joseph Kony]

latarian milton making a serious case for potm tbh

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

As was noted above it's not that NOBODY ever said it, but with the passage of time and the new generation of fans coming to the NBA, the difference you're going to see going forward is one of traction. More people will be willing to say it about Lebron, and more people will be able to actually believe it. I don't think Kobe's equal or better than Jordan (though I think he's come as close to it as any guard since Jordan). The thing is I don't think anyone in the media honestly thinks so either, or at the very least knew that the public on the whole wouldn't buy it. You can spin some numbers, make a coherent (though not compelling IMO) case for it, but in the end I think the idea of Kobe>MJ was something that was a sure fire way to generate some buzz by playing devil's advocate. You'll get Lakers fans citing it and e-mailing it to anyone who will listen, yelling, "See! See! It's true! It's true!". You'll also get an equally visceral opposite reaction from most any nonLaker fan who grew up watching Jordan and continued to follow the NBA through Kobe's career. Seeing the words "_____ better than Jordan" just doesn't compute. And that reaction is just as good for getting someone to read your column even if it's just to tell you what a head they think you are in the comments section.

Going forward you're going to have more and more fans whose sole knowledge of Jordan is by way of youtube. Jordan and Kobe's careers overlapped ever so briefly, just enough for that shadow to stretch all the way out to LA. No such problem for James. 1998 was 14 years ago. Anyone under 20 could very well have no recollection of Jordan in a Bulls uni. That's to say nothing of the massive influx of international fans with equally brief memories. You're going to be hearing the case for Lebron = Jordan a lot more in years to come because it's much easier to try compare a guy to a ghost than to a legend.

[whitemamba]

The supporting cast of Jordan wasn't as big, fast and physical as those of Kobe then, by you own logic. The league grew, and all the players did. You can't cherry pick the compe ion and leave out the supporting cast.

It is tough to gauge compe ion in the two eras, as the basketball landscape has changed. In the 90s, the talent is more spreadout, with players like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Payton/Kemp, Stockton/Malone, Shaq/Penny manning their own teams. The road to the championship has to go through a bunch of good teams with a more spreadout talent base, whereas in the 00s, talented players bunch up together, and the concept of superteams came into play, where you have the Celtics, Lakers, and now the Heat. You have more talent in the compe ion, but you also have more talent on your side if you are on the super teams. To top it off, the road to the championship is "easier" because the chances of bumping into another team with comparable talent is smaller than the 90s.

Kobe's ppg went up dramatically after the league made changes to open up the perimeter in 2000 (transition from the Jordan era to the Shaq era) in an effort to open up scoring, so he actually has an advantage in terms of perimeter offense over Jordan did, but still put up the same numbers.

Your statement about Kobe increasing production with Pau and Bynum not showing up requires some level of back up, it's entirely conjecture, and has little to base off of.

Also, I have stated many times the number of rings to gauge a players' greatness is lazy and stupid, so I am not going into it again.

MJ is also a horrible evaluator of talent, great player, horrible GM/owner, what he said in terms of player evaluation actually holds very little water.

here are the stats from '12 playoffs, providing no body showed up

Bynum shot 47% 16PPG, that was supposed to be our second option.. hes never more than 3 feet from the basket (jacking up that 3 in reg season doesnt count) he should be shooting well over that.
Pau- 12PPG on 43% shooting, thats a major drop in what he produces in the regular season and the year before
MWP- 11PPG on 36% shooting- nothing to be said
Kobe- 30PPG on 44% shooting... playing 40 MPG at the age of 34?? thats atrocious
And Sessions just for fun- 10PPG on 37% shooting..

the bench on the other hand 16PPG on on 41% shooting, i think we were almost last in the league in that category..

nobody except kobe showed up, now u might say "well thats because all he did was jack up shots" we tried running somewhat of an offense and feed the big guys.. no one came to play..

MJS supporting cast always came to play, he had key role players that u know who they are that always showed up when it counted.

that being said, im interested to know where you personally rank kobe (no trolling) among all time players and among all time SG's.?

[mindcrime]

- I've been saying the same thing about Kobe around these parts for a long time. Question of the day: were any of MJ's teammates tier than Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook or Luke Walton? to the no. Yet many of you disregard that fact when holding the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs or was one and done playing with these NBA players. Keep moving the goal post when it is convenient Sacramento Queen Fan.

Find me where I've ever said Kobe was to blame for not making the playoffs? On the contrary, I don't believe I've ever said anything really negative about Kobe or his game. These comparisons just get old. The bottom line is Kobe is a great player. Anyone who denies his greatness is probably a troll. He is just not on par with Jordan though. Jordan is the GOAT and its too late for Bryant to change that. Oh and 'Sacramento Queens fan', hilarious. You come up with that on your own?

[Koolaid_Man]

jesus i wish you were a ugandan child. MJ never got stomped by the celtics in his prime. your boy kobe on the other hand got bounced in the round twice and failed to make the playoffs at his peak. not until he was gifted gasol did he return to relevance

^ Hey you black and ugly greasy faced bas ...MJ never beat 3 first ballot HOF's (Celtics) to win an NBA le either... Kobe did in fact Kobe beat 4 All-Stars enroute to a le...KG, Allen, Pierce, Rondo

[Koolaid_Man]

Yeah and he would have three less rings if he had not played with Shaq so........ Once again you are sipping the koolaid.

I've already thoroughly disproved your small minded theory..If Shaq couldn't win with 3 All-Star Guards --> Penny Hardaway, Van Exel, and Eddie Jones but he could win with Kobe...I think the answer is clear...Shaq needed Kobe way more than Kobe needed Shaq...in fact I also have another card that trumps your bull hand...what have they done when not playing together....lemme see:

Kobe 2
Shaq 1

You may now proceed to suck my

[Venti Quattro]

^ Hey you black and ugly greasy faced bas ...MJ never beat 3 first ballot HOF's (Celtics) to win an NBA le either... Kobe did in fact Kobe beat 4 All-Stars enroute to a le...KG, Allen, Pierce, Rondo

Truth bomb...it's important for a Laker great to have beaten the Celtics in the Finals to be really mentioned in the pantheon of greats.

[Koolaid_Man]

Phil Jackson has something to do with it.

there's always excuses with you...pull Cully's 14inch mold outta your ass...it has you all congested and full of

[Koolaid_Man]

Truth bomb...it's important for a Laker great to have beaten the Celtics in the Finals to be really mentioned in the pantheon of greats.

Something else these Jack Off Kings fail to realize...

Kobe went back to back with NO HOF'ers on his team...MJ had Pippen for the ride who was considered 1st ballot when he played and is now...He also had HOF'er Dennis Rodman...

Wade is a first ballot HOF'er and Bosh will easily get in so Lebron had 2 HOF'ers on his team when he rang...

I dare any Spur fan to say that Tony Parker and Manu aren't HOF worthy players....what's sad in this case is that Duncan was playing with HOF'ers and couldn't even defend his crown not once....

So what Kobe's done is no small feat..He not only went back to back with No Shaq but that did it without any Hall Of Fame players....

[Jeff Van Gundy]

pass1st thinks Kobe > Jordan

wonder what happened to him?

[Rummpd]

LOL of Lakers fans and your continual over-hype along with ESPN of one Kobe Bryant!

Kobe is simply put not even close to Jordan in greatness and is simply by far, the most over hyped NBA player ever, won three les mainly due to Shaq, and could not even lead a team to the playoffs one year until he cried enough and they got Gasol. Now the 18th* all time most efficient NBA player (Jordan is number one and James at number 2 does deserve consideration for the all time GOAT and number one drama queen of all time (although Howard is beasting him for the last 2 years and James gave him a run for his money for a year or so) will gun the Lakers out of what should be a le team. Mark it down now. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_career.html *

[Venti Quattro]

LOL of Lakers fans and your continual over-hype along with ESPN of one Kobe Bryant!

Kobe is simply put not even close to Jordan in greatness and is simply by far, the most over hyped NBA player ever, won three les mainly due to Shaq, and could not even lead a team to the playoffs one year until he cried enough and they got Gasol. Now the 18th* all time most efficient NBA player (Jordan is number one and James at number 2 does deserve consideration for the all time GOAT and number one drama queen of all time (although Howard is beasting him for the last 2 years and James gave him a run for his money for a year or so) will gun the Lakers out of what should be a le team. Mark it down now. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_career.html *

Welcome back, Rummpd!

[ambchang]

here are the stats from '12 playoffs, providing no body showed up

Bynum shot 47% 16PPG, that was supposed to be our second option.. hes never more than 3 feet from the basket (jacking up that 3 in reg season doesnt count) he should be shooting well over that.
Pau- 12PPG on 43% shooting, thats a major drop in what he produces in the regular season and the year before
MWP- 11PPG on 36% shooting- nothing to be said
Kobe- 30PPG on 44% shooting... playing 40 MPG at the age of 34?? thats atrocious
And Sessions just for fun- 10PPG on 37% shooting..

the bench on the other hand 16PPG on on 41% shooting, i think we were almost last in the league in that category..

nobody except kobe showed up, now u might say "well thats because all he did was jack up shots" we tried running somewhat of an offense and feed the big guys.. no one came to play..

MJS supporting cast always came to play, he had key role players that u know who they are that always showed up when it counted.

that being said, im interested to know where you personally rank kobe (no trolling) among all time players and among all time SG's.?

First off, saying that as proof that the teammates didn't show up is questionable. It could be because they didn't show up, or that Kobe was hogging the ball, or the opposition figured out the best way to stop the Lakers is to let Kobe shoot them out of the series, coaching decisions, amongst other things.

Second, Bynum scored 18.7ppg on 56%. While his playoffs numbers were not as good, it wasn't that horrible either.

In playoff games where Kobe scored less than 30 pts (averaging 20.2 pts on 37% shooting), Bynum scored 18.6 ppg on 46% shooting, while Pau scored 15.2pts on 50% shooting, while in playoff games where Kobe scored more than 30 points (averaging 37 ppg on 47% shooting), Bynum had 15.3 ppg on 49% shooting and Pau had 12 ppg on 42% shooting. While you could argue that Kobe picked up the slack, it also showed that Kobe shot 21.4 FGA in games of < 30 points, but 27.7 FGA on those games where he had >30 points. not curiously, that 6.3 less FGA were picked up by Bynum and Pau (1.8 and 2.3 each).

Second, MWP's PPG went up by 4ppg in the playoffs, which more or less offset the decrease in production of Pau, while fringe guys like Steve Blake and Jordan Hill made up for the lost in production of Bynum.

And no, MJ's supporting cast didn't always come to play, look at the 87 roster, think of Pippen's migraines.

I would rank Kobe in the 10 to 15 range in terms of accomplishments, and likely 2nd of all time amongst SGs.

(The following list isn't etched in stone, it has evolved over time, and is likely going to change in order in the future).
1. KAJ
2. Jordan
3. Magic
4. Moses Malone (I really think he is the most underrated player of all time)
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Bill Russell (not for his game, but the way he progressed the game)
8 to 10. Tim Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, in no particular order that I could discern
11. Oscar Robertson
12 to 15. Kobe Bryant, John Havlicek (another massively underrated player), Rick Barry, Dr. J (including his ABA days)
16 to 20. David Robinson, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Lebron James
Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Kevin McHale will follow.

Players like Cousy, Baylor and the such are too far in the past.

EDIT: Forgot about West, who would be in the 12 to 16 spot, and the following group would be 17 to 21 instead.

[Venti Quattro]

Kobe only in the top 15
Robinson in the top 20

[ambchang]

Kobe won one MVP, two finals MVP, 14 All-NBA teams, 12 all-d team selections (some are highly questionable, but regardless) and 2 scoring les
Robinson won one MVP, one DPoY, 10 All-NBA teams, 8 all-d team selections, rookie of the year, led the league scoring, rebounding and blocked shots once each, one of two players in the history of the league to rank in top 10 in 5 major statistical categories in one season (I think Larry Bird is the other), only player in the history of the league to rank top 5 in 3 major statistical category in one season.

I'd say pretty comparable.

[Venti Quattro]

Robinson is a guy who continuously folded when things mattered. Hakeem owned his ass on the big stage, and so did Malone. You think Kobe is bad when it counts and/or just coat-tailed for rings? Look no further in your own backyard. The only thing that saved his bible-thumping ass is Duncan.

[ambchang]

LOL, I have consistently mentioned how team accomplishments mean little to an individual's legacy in the playoffs. Sure, Robinson got embarrassed by Hakeem in the 95 playoffs, but those who regurgitate it continuously are simpletons who obviously did not watch the series. Hakeem scored most of his points on Rodman, not Robinson, while Robinson was double or triple teamed the entire series. The Rockets superior perimeter defense (and the shorter 3 pt line) allowed them to easily double Robinson and recover on the perimeter when need be, while the Spurs couldn't counter against the quicker perimeter of the Rockets.

The Spurs were horribly constructed in the 90s, when Robinson had a PG who made more than 1 3 pt FG in his entire playoff career (the same guy who was cut by the Rockets multiple times), he scored more/the same on better/similar FG% than he did in the regular season. Sure, GOAT would still step up and dominate the game, but then he is not a GOAT.

And thanks for confirming that Kobe and Robinson were comparable with your folding, coat-tailing comments, I guess I should put them in the same band instead of Kobe in a higher band now. I didn't even know my own contradictions until you pointed it out.

[Venti Quattro]

Thanks for mentioning how much of a pussy he is by not guarding Hakeem most of the time.

Please, let's cut the bull . Kobe and Robinson are not cut from the same cloth. One is a closer and the other is a preacher.

[ambchang]

Not guarding Hakeem is being a pussy? Kobe never guarded Hakeem either, so he was a pussy too? Did Kobe guard Durant? Westbrooke? Why did they even got Matt Barnes and Artest btw? For their unbelievable offensive prowess?

And Kobe is such a closer, that reams and reams of statistics showed how poorly he performed in the clutch. Feel free to ignore them.

[Koolaid_Man]

Not guarding Hakeem is being a pussy? Kobe never guarded Hakeem either, so he was a pussy too? Did Kobe guard Durant? Westbrooke? Why did they even got Matt Barnes and Artest btw? For their unbelievable offensive prowess?

And Kobe is such a closer, that reams and reams of statistics showed how poorly he performed in the clutch. Feel free to ignore them.

It's a well known and established fact that Kobe guards the opposing teams best player from PG-SF. In fact here is exhibit #1 that I'd like to submit into evidence:

This is prime-time, big-time homie...my is the real deal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps

[daspurs]

If only Jordan had to play against those tough Pacers, Nets, and Magic teams in the Finals, he'd have never won a ring.....

[Koolaid_Man]

find me something were Robinson can even come close to some like that....

[Koolaid_Man]

Kobe Blocks Duncan 3 Times In The Same Game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrfElBT_BOY

[Koolaid_Man]

Now Imma bout to really with Spur fan.....for those of you young Spur fans this is must see TV and very good introduction into the Art of Hating Kobe Bryant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM