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  1. #576
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    I literally said Simmons wasn’t a bad player. What the is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the le? Your premise for roster building is as bad as the circular logic contained in your post. I would say the only disillusioned here is the group who thinks this team will make big trades or spend the max on a player who’s opposite of their values. What team do you think this is?

  2. #577
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    Not comparable IMO. Not only was Milwaukee getting a great player, but they were dumping a useless player on a big money contract in Bledsoe. Bledsoe was pure highly negative value and that's why they had to sweeten the pot with that third pick. And Holiday wasn't forcing his way out of town like Simmons so Milwaukee didn't have NO's GM bent over the table. Also Holiday is Simmons on defense but with an efficient offensive game and a pretty high quality three point shot while shooting a decent amount of them per game, so I disagree they're similar caliber players. Simmons is potential, and with high bust potential. Holiday is a finished product.
    They're both complimentary stars though Simmons has been considered better and has a higher upside. He's an even more versatile defender and Holiday is inefficient offensively, but more useful in the playoffs because he doesn't have a glaring weakness that can easily be exploited . . . but that only matters at a championship level and this organization has given no indication of that being the ultimate goal here.

    I acknowledged Bledsoe was a salary dump, but he was also a quality starting PG in the regular season whose flaws were only fatal because the Bucks were a championship contender.

    For the 9,000 time, the 76ers leverage is that he has 4 years remaining, which is unusual in these cases and therefore opens it up to non glamour markets like this one. They're clearly not getting some massive package, but they're damn sure beating most of the crap suggested by the apologists, casuals and homers on here.

    You idiots have got Chinook and I (mostly) agreeing.
    Last edited by TD 21; 09-06-2021 at 10:49 AM.

  3. #578
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I literally said Simmons wasn’t a bad player. What the is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the le? Your premise for roster building is as bad as the circular logic contained in your post. I would say the only disillusioned here is the group who thinks this team will make big trades or spend the max on a player who’s opposite of their values. What team do you think this is?
    You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter. Teams make trades like that repeatedly like Chicago giving up picks for Vuc or the Heat for Dragic. You take a step with one move then make others.

    The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality. That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.

    Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them. People don't realize how disposable or at least easily replaceable most of the roster is now that the Spurs are a mediocre team. For example, five years ago, a Vassell-level prospect would've been pure gold for the Spurs. Now they can expect to draft one every year. They can trade him and just draft a new mid-first three-and-D wing next year or at worst in two years. It's no big deal. White was a late-round guy who played like a mid-round guy. That was a huge boon back when all SA had was late-round picks. Now they have mid-round picks every year and can try to draft a guy there rather than clinging to their previous steal. Folks need to accept what being in this new era of the team means and stop thinking this is just a pit stop on the way to a quick and inevitable return to the playoff streak.

  4. #579
    Shaken, not stirred jjspur's Avatar
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    Realistically. most offers for Simmons will probably be more than the spurs front office will be willing to give up for a player that just wont move the needle much right away. Some team will eventually break down and send several players and picks for Simmons. I just don't think it will be the spurs.
    Maybe we can include Thaddeus Young as part of a package that another team makes for Simmons. We won't get Simmons, but we may get something of value for Young and whomever else the spurs don't exactly want for this years team. (Please no trades with Phoenix) Young has value, if the spurs really don't want him or question his fit on the team, why not kill two birds with one stone and improve our team at the same time. This may get us more than just trading him at the deadline. At the deadline, if you don't trade a player you're stuck with him and may have to buy them out. That's basically money down the drain and the player just gets money and gets to play where he wants. Haven't the spurs done enough of that.

  5. #580
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    It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

    And no, I'd trade a ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

    Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy , most Spurs champions have personal -ups worse than what Simmons did.
    Manu probably cost us two rings in 06 and 13, and I still rank him in my top 3 Spurs. No one is perfect.

  6. #581
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    And I wouldn’t be so sure SA could flip Simmons if things went south. If he didn’t work out here (meaning we didn’t see an improvement in a year or two in his shooting and at ude) then the ceiling and hope is gone with how he’s viewed and his last 2 years of his deal is an albatross you can maybe do a Westbrook/Wall type of deal for.

    I’m not so certain Sa could recoup firsts in that situation is all I’m saying (in a situation where we don’t see any improvement)

  7. #582
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    And I wouldn’t be so sure SA could flip Simmons if things went south. If he didn’t work out here (meaning we didn’t see an improvement in a year or two in his shooting and at ude) then the ceiling and hope is gone with how he’s viewed and his last 2 years of his deal is an albatross you can maybe do a Westbrook/Wall type of deal for.

    I’m not so certain Sa could recoup firsts in that situation is all I’m saying (in a situation where we don’t see any improvement)
    Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to ac ulate assets and contracts to match

  8. #583
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    So I looked at the record for the 76ers without embid and it was 7-9 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/six...ys-this-season.
    This would be roughly 35 wins in an 82 game season. I did find a stretch where he was out for 9 games March 14-April 1st. The only good team they beat during that time was Milwaukee. They also beat the lakers but that was without AD and lehype. They also lost to us and the wolves. During that time frame they did respectable 5-4 but I would not say this was because of Simmons. Looks like he shot 48/106 fg for 45% Only hit double digit rebounds in 3 of the 9 games or 1/3. More To then ast in 2 and tied in a third. 4 total blocks 11total steals.

    People keep talking about how him being here for 4 years means he is stuck here and has to play. Kawhi set out when he had 2 years and Simmons is already saying he is going to do with with 4 years. There is no guarantee that he would play here for the 4 years. If he does this again to us who know how low the package would be. DJM is also signed for 3 more years at a much cheaper contract. This is why I can say DJM is the better player. He also is happy to be here and much cheaper contract. So no I would not trade Murray plus salary filler for Ben.

    edit: I also look at ppg and it was a about 13.5. nothing in these numbers is start quality. People Believe the name and hype and not actually what he does.
    Last edited by talkspurs; 09-06-2021 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #584
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    I'm not saying they'd get the exact value given up if things went south in 2 years, but he'd still be worth a decent amount, further mitigating the opportunity cost.

    At people reading into small sample sizes and relying on counting stats without context.

    I'm not a Simmons fan and have always found him overrated, but so much of the commentary in this thread is ridiculous.

  10. #585
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to ac ulate assets and contracts to match

    Maybe - but I am talking about how Simmons is viewed. In theory hes’ all of those things now and PHI doesn’t want him and he’s not getting big offers (that we know of). A big part of how fans and more importantly teams view him is still discussed in the lenses of “untapped potential” and “can fix his shot”.

    If that narrative dies, I dont think hes worth his deal at all especially if you dont have the team success that PHI had to bolster any arguments. You may not agree with that and part of this is speculative, but my gut says many teams view him in the framework I presented and that represents risk to me that needs to be considered to the downside (meaning can you recoup picks if you dont like what you see when you’re up close and personal and giving away multiple firsts)

  11. #586
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    I'm not saying they'd get the exact value given up if things went south in 2 years, but he'd still be worth a decent amount, further mitigating the opportunity cost.

    At people reading into small sample sizes and relying on counting stats without context.

    I'm not a Simmons fan and have always found him overrated, but so much of the commentary in this thread is ridiculous.
    He actually does not appear to be worth much currently. we dont know exactly his value but I have not heard of any team willing to give up a lot for him. If his value goes down even more it could be where your haveing to pay to get rid of him. Look at some other players are not work as much. Wall/ love are two players that were good but are not worth much now (yes older but had proven value). If Simmons does not improve he will not have much value. If this was the case then Bowen would have been a max player. There have been many good defense players that were nowhere close to max contracts and as people point out this is for 4 more years.

    As far as using small sample size this is all we have to go on. He is not a star player and is living on his hype.

  12. #587
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    I haven't read a comment yet that makes a good case for this trade. What does Simmons actually do for this team in the short and long term while also losing multiple assets. Sure, he's an excellent defender but so is Murray and while he brings more playmaking, his shooting will continue to be a major issue on offense. Whether we acquire Simmons or not, we are still in need of a number 1 option and this trade won't do anything to fix that issue.

    Furthermore, the Spurs history of acquiring all-star level talent from outside the program in my view has been a failure. From Jefferson, LMA & DeRozan, they all were productive but lacking that compe ive mindset we've seen from so many former Spurs and I'm not only talking about the big 3.

    Finally, as I mentioned before, if Simmons is willing to sit out training camp, it's a huge red flag and I anticipate this behavior will resurface again in the future. He has taken no ownership of his playoff performance while collecting millions from the organization and clearly doesn't have the toughness and for ude to deal with adversity. He's simply not in the Spurs mold and I would pass on trying to acquire him.

  13. #588
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to ac ulate assets and contracts to match
    Are you getting paid by Klutch or something? I hope so, because your takes on this whole situation are completely ridiculous.

  14. #589
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    I haven't read a comment yet that makes a good case for this trade. What does Simmons actually do for this team in the short and long term while also losing multiple assets. Sure, he's an excellent defender but so is Murray and while he brings more playmaking, his shooting will continue to be a major issue on offense. Whether we acquire Simmons or not, we are still in need of a number 1 option and this trade won't do anything to fix that issue.

    Furthermore, the Spurs history of acquiring all-star level talent from outside the program in my view has been a failure. From Jefferson, LMA & DeRozan, they all were productive but lacking that compe ive mindset we've seen from so many former Spurs and I'm not only talking about the big 3.

    Finally, as I mentioned before, if Simmons is willing to sit out training camp, it's a huge red flag and I anticipate this behavior will resurface again in the future. He has taken no ownership of his playoff performance while collecting millions from the organization and clearly doesn't have the toughness and for ude to deal with adversity. He's simply not in the Spurs mold and I would pass on trying to acquire him.
    This thread is only useful for a laugh. The Spurs would never trade for this git. He's expensive in salary, not worth anything in trade, is a total malcontent, and is wildly overrated as a player. It's just ridiculous.

  15. #590
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.

  16. #591
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter..
    I've repeatedly said it doesn't help us in the long-term.

    The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality.
    No, we're really not. The discussion is centered around a media outlet reporting the Spurs being interested in Ben, and with people actively bringing up every miniscule move the Spurs make as if they're a precursor to a Ben Simmons trade. You have some here thinking something's going to happen when Primo is allowed to be traded, which I think was your hypothesis.

    That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.
    Well, I don't know if you're referencing me here, but I never said such a thing nor do I believe that. In any case, some here have pointed out it's not a player to player comparison, but moreso the cir stance (contract, ego, fit, etc.) around the player that makes Murray > Simmons. NOT saying I agree, but it's more layered than how you think it is. Whether you agree or disagree, that's another point.

    Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them.
    I mean, this is fair. I'm arguing the absurd expectation of what Ben is as a player and how unrealistic it is for him to develop a jump shot, lead a team, or all of a sudden not be a malcontent. You have folks here thinking he could be Boris Diaw for this team... yeah, that Boris Diaw who was the 4th or 5th option on a talent heavy team, let's pay that guy the max contract and hope he is a building block for a future contender. There are moves for the sake of making a move, and this would be one of them. I get that when a real star actually becomes available, the Spurs would probably not be a trade partner, but this isn't it. IF the Spurs get Ben, my hope is they continue to find another star to let Ben become the complementary piece, and not the other way around.

  17. #592
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    People conflate the mutual departures of DeRozan and Gay (they wanted Mills back) with their wanting a full scale rebuild, but I've long said their goal appears to be Pacers West and this would fit with that.
    I missed this. Even if they are the Pacers of the West, the Pacers of the East would not be close to being a top 10 seed if they were in the West. To me, this is as close to a full scale rebuild with very few proven players on the projected roster - pretty much resembling a team that could bottom out (if you look at any point in NBA history and compare rosters), with the national media even acknowledging them as a potential top 5 worst team next season.

  18. #593
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I've repeatedly said it doesn't help us in the long-term.
    Okay... but I'm not saying that. So we just disagree there. But when I say, " They're just getting a massive infusion of talent for spare parts," saying, "What the is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the le?" is only really comprehensible if you think the logic of getting better doesn't make sense unless it's going to directly result in a le run. Right, like it's fine that you don't think the Spurs can win with Simmons on the team in any realistic capacity, but then you aren't actually criticizing what I'm saying; you're just expressing your different. That's fine, but it's just a stalemate at that point.

    No, we're really not. The discussion is centered around a media outlet reporting the Spurs being interested in Ben, and with people actively bringing up every miniscule move the Spurs make as if they're a precursor to a Ben Simmons trade. You have some here thinking something's going to happen when Primo is allowed to be traded, which I think was your hypothesis.


    So no, we're talking about the viability and potential results of a Simmons trade. Just like with Collins and numerous players before this year, I'm actually not doing anything but talking about the hypothetical scenarios involving the player. I didn't tell anyone that Primo's deadline is going to matter. I did say that if Primo was going to be part of a Simmons trade, the Spurs would have to wait until his deadline. If you read past that part, I basically said that it was unlikely that he would be part of a Simmons trade because his money would very likely not be needed to make the trade viable. They would've just traded his rights. Of course, the Spurs could still trade him or any other player on the team for Simmons or anyone else. But I'm not actually telling people it's going to happen, and anyone thinking that I am is wrong. I've never pretended to have sources or anything.

    Well, I don't know if you're referencing me here, but I never said such a thing nor do I believe that. In any case, some here have pointed out it's not a player to player comparison, but moreso the cir stance (contract, ego, fit, etc.) around the player that makes Murray > Simmons. NOT saying I agree, but it's more layered than how you think it is. Whether you agree or disagree, that's another point.


    No, I'm not talking about you there. I am talking about the Simmons criticism in general, which is the specific thing you quoted me to refute. However, I am not ignoring the "other factors" when saying Simmons is obviously better than Murray. A lot of things as it concerns ego, fit and contract don't align well with Murray, as I've said before. Talent is just one of the avenues in which Simmons is better.

    I mean, this is fair. I'm arguing the absurd expectation of what Ben is as a player and how unrealistic it is for him to develop a jump shot, lead a team, or all of a sudden not be a malcontent.


    I think trading for him hoping he'll start shooting is bad. He's not a good gamble. He's a good straight-buy in my mind, but you shouldn't get him for the upside. Yes, the Spurs should look for another star who fits with him. Whether you consider one the leader or not is up to here.

  19. #594
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    He actually does not appear to be worth much currently. we dont know exactly his value but I have not heard of any team willing to give up a lot for him. If his value goes down even more it could be where your haveing to pay to get rid of him. Look at some other players are not work as much. Wall/ love are two players that were good but are not worth much now (yes older but had proven value). If Simmons does not improve he will not have much value. If this was the case then Bowen would have been a max player. There have been many good defense players that were nowhere close to max contracts and as people point out this is for 4 more years.

    As far as using small sample size this is all we have to go on. He is not a star player and is living on his hype.
    Context: most of the contenders or pseudo ones lack the expendable assets and because of his lack of shooting, in some cases it'd take reorienting the roster, so that takes them out and leaves teams non playoff/glamor market teams like this, who either don't have or are unwilling to send them a centerpiece and need to determine how much draft capital they'd be willing to part with.

    Bowen was a specialist, who lacked the versatility of Simmons. Wall and Love lost value as aging players who'd suffered career altering injuries. As long as Simmons avoids the latter, he'll maintain solid resale value going forward. DeRozan, a less desirable player, just went for what ultimately might amount to two mid-late 1sts and a 2nd.

    The point is, they're not worth reading into. He's a complimentary star.


    I missed this. Even if they are the Pacers of the West, the Pacers of the East would not be close to being a top 10 seed if they were in the West. To me, this is as close to a full scale rebuild with very few proven players on the projected roster - pretty much resembling a team that could bottom out (if you look at any point in NBA history and compare rosters), with the national media even acknowledging them as a potential top 5 worst team next season.
    I don't mean at the moment, I meant their goal is something like that. If they luck into something better, great. But they're not going to willingly go through what the 76ers did or the Thunder are in the midst of, to potentially attain it.

  20. #595
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    Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.
    Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.

  21. #596
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.
    Agree. But Simmons will have the same positive effect contrary to what other posters say. And knowing Pop, he values defense and passing more than anything

  22. #597
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    https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelph...own-doc-rivers

    Guys, this isn't just fall out from one bad series...This is a systemic issue.

    ...In his rookie season, Simmons took 218 field goal attempts that would qualify as mid-range— beginning 10 feet from the basket and going out to the three-point line — in 91 games, counting the postseason.
    The following season, he also played a total of 91 games — and took 99 shots from that same range. In 2019-2020, he took a total of 30 mid-range shots in 57 games. If that’s not a red flag, you’re colorblind.
    This past season, he got a bit more adventurous, taking 44 mid-range shots in 70 total games, but that still works out to one about every other game, which is laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    Add it up: 218 mid-range attempts in 91 games his rookie season, 173 in three seasons since. And no one in the front office batted an eyelash until now.
    Last edited by PhantomDashCam; 09-06-2021 at 07:31 PM.

  23. #598
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    Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.
    Diaw wasn't aggressive and sometimes hesitated to find offense for himself, Diaw probably hurt his career and definitely hurt his money by regularly coming into the season a bit out of shape and after he had a couple of million in the bank arguably didn't care as much about basketball, but he didn't quit on his team and he was never paid like a star. He was always a complimentary player who arguably never really lived up to his potential.

  24. #599
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Diaw wasn't aggressive and sometimes hesitated to find offense for himself, Diaw probably hurt his career and definitely hurt his money by regularly coming into the season a bit out of shape and after he had a couple of million in the bank arguably didn't care as much about basketball, but he didn't quit on his team and he was never paid like a star. He was always a complimentary player who arguably never really lived up to his potential.
    I think he finally redeemed himself with a le with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.

  25. #600
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
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    Mar 2003
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    Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.
    Diaw wasn’t an All D player and DPOY candidate on top of being a big man creator like Simmons is.

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