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  1. #51
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    It’s true. Desperate win now teams are who we should try to advantage of. Star player movement is so rapid that GMs tend to get impulsive when the window is briefly open, especially large market teams.

  2. #52
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
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    Wait, firsts are traded all the time. It's usually not for superstars either. Yes, it's not very realistic to expect the Spurs to get a first and expirings for Young. But it's not hard at all to imagine them getting a first if they trade Young for bad money like in this proposed deal. The only way it's even feasible without the first is if the Spurs love Smith. Otherwise, it's not even a positive package.
    This offseason:
    Portland traded lottery protected 1st for Larry Nance Jr.
    Bulls traded future 1st for DeMar DeRozan
    Two firsts swapped in three team trade between Pelicans, Grizzlies, Hornets
    Jazz traded future 1st to Thunder for taking Derrick Favors
    Rockets traded two future 1sts to move up to draft Alperen Sengun
    Hornets trade future 1st to move up to draft Kai Jones

  3. #53
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    Wait, firsts are traded all the time. It's usually not for superstars either. Yes, it's not very realistic to expect the Spurs to get a first and expirings for Young. But it's not hard at all to imagine them getting a first if they trade Young for bad money like in this proposed deal. The only way it's even feasible without the first is if the Spurs love Smith. Otherwise, it's not even a positive package.
    Let’s also not forget that Smith isn’t exactly on a bargain deal either. Being picked ahead of Vassell, he’s due $4.7 and $6.0 million the next two years.

    That eats into possible cap space next offseason, which even if the Spurs aren’t using to sign anyone we have seen they can be creative with.

    Now if they are super high on him and have a plan, then it’s worth taking a swing while at the same time probably also making your own draft pick better this year.

  4. #54
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Let’s also not forget that Smith isn’t exactly on a bargain deal either. Being picked ahead of Vassell, he’s due $4.7 and $6.0 million the next two years.

    That eats into possible cap space next offseason, which even if the Spurs aren’t using to sign anyone we have seen they can be creative with.

    Now if they are super high on him and have a plan, then it’s worth taking a swing while at the same time probably also making your own draft pick better this year.
    If the Spurs really liked Smith, the size of his rookie deal shouldn’t be a problem. They just dumped money on an injured Zollins because he’s still young and they see some potential. At least Smith is healthy and younger, with some untapped potential, Zollins has gotten more opportunities and been mediocre…

  5. #55
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    If the Spurs really liked Smith, the size of his rookie deal shouldn’t be a problem. They just dumped money on an injured Zollins because he’s still young and they see some potential. At least Smith is healthy and younger, with some untapped potential, Zollins has gotten more opportunities and been mediocre…
    The one thing Zollins has is a really good drtg at the rim. He isn’t a premier shot blocker, but then again, neither was Splitter.

  6. #56
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Not necessarily. The Thunder have a million picks, essentially an open roster spot and a need at center, so they might be interested. The Timberwolves have a need at power forward, so if they foolishly think he can play it, they might be too (would have to include Okogie or Layman, but maybe a team like the Raptors, with open spots, is interested in one of them). Obviously, most likely the Spurs would have to be interested in Smith though.
    The Thunder are the only team with reasonable cap space, and they aren't likely to sell it for cheap. They certainly aren't a team that's going to pay "fair value" when they're in a leverage position.


    In other words, you don't have one.
    No, in other words, I'm not going to list every team in the league and what they'd be willing to trade, because it's trivially easy to come up with examples. When you have the Spurs taking on bad money and getting back no value for a good expiring contract, the parameters are just too wide open. There's nothing unique about Phoenix other than them having an IR contract they want to get rid of.

    Except I didn't propose one, I explained that this is about what I expect Young to fetch.
    So you did propose this trade by virtue of making a thread on it. I didn't say you came up with the idea.

    They should absolutely want to though.
    No, they should want to be the best team they can be. That doesn't mean getting worse on the court for a late-second.

    Wrong. That could contribute to winning a few more games, messing up their draft odds and limiting Vassell/blocking Samanic. His only value to them should be in what he can get them in return and they'd be wise to maximize it now.
    So no. YOU want them to lose games and tank. We get that. They want to win games, so him helping them do that is providing them value. You should be able to step outside of what you think they should do and look at them objectively. If they win 43 games instead of 38 games or whatever, then that's objective value he adds. And they can choose to use that value or convert it. Both of those are options, even if you REALLY hope them do the second thing.

  7. #57
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Let’s also not forget that Smith isn’t exactly on a bargain deal either. Being picked ahead of Vassell, he’s due $4.7 and $6.0 million the next two years.

    That eats into possible cap space next offseason, which even if the Spurs aren’t using to sign anyone we have seen they can be creative with.

    Now if they are super high on him and have a plan, then it’s worth taking a swing while at the same time probably also making your own draft pick better this year.
    Exactly. I don't know whether this is a bad deal or not, but if the Spurs don't like him, they shouldn't do this trade. Players aren't random numbers. Drafting isn't a lottery. On the aggregate, you can break things down in terms of odds, but when it comes to specific players or acquisitions, you have to look at them as actual people with strengths, weaknesses and developmental plans. Smith doesn't have a 10-percent chance of being good or whatever. That's just Vegas-style handicapping. So the Spurs either believe in Smith or they don't. Whether they take him or not will be based on that, not on some antiquated notion of "collecting assets and seeing what happens".

  8. #58
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    Saric was a meh player when healthy. He's a long way from his draft hype. Folks shouldn't be banking on him having value next year.
    Ya I’m not banking on it and it in no way should influence sas thinking. Was purely speculation that he may net a 2nd next year.

  9. #59
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    And from what I’m gathering I think Thad is the only player this off season not to have reported to SA? May be wrong but if true wonder if they have an agreement to keep him away (nothing malicious or bad, just a mutual agreement) while they work things out so he doesn’t have to unnecessarily travel and he can just keep working out?

  10. #60
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    Doesn't all this talk about trading Young depend on where he might land in the rotation. Is he projected as a starter at PF? If not, who? I'm not a mind reader of the coaches but it seems like he is probably at least as good or better than anyone else on the roster at that position??? I'd sure like to see him play a few pre-season games before deciding to trade him for anyone who is currently injured or for a future draft choice below a first.

  11. #61
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    The Thunder are the only team with reasonable cap space, and they aren't likely to sell it for cheap. They certainly aren't a team that's going to pay "fair value" when they're in a leverage position.

    No, in other words, I'm not going to list every team in the league and what they'd be willing to trade, because it's trivially easy to come up with examples. When you have the Spurs taking on bad money and getting back no value for a good expiring contract, the parameters are just too wide open. There's nothing unique about Phoenix other than them having an IR contract they want to get rid of.

    No, they should want to be the best team they can be. That doesn't mean getting worse on the court for a late-second.

    So no. YOU want them to lose games and tank. We get that. They want to win games, so him helping them do that is providing them value. You should be able to step outside of what you think they should do and look at them objectively. If they win 43 games instead of 38 games or whatever, then that's objective value he adds. And they can choose to use that value or convert it. Both of those are options, even if you REALLY hope them do the second thing.
    It's possible the Thunder see value in Smith and are willing to give up a decent 2nd.

    So easy that you can't come up with one, yet you're going to pontificate while attempting to confuse pla utes for fact.

    Starless, non glamour teams shouldn't perenially aspire to pick in the late lottery/mid round. Again, they'd have to see value in Smith or what he could fetch and potentially Saric eventually; not the late 2nd.

    As usual, I'm being objective. You might notice if you were capable of taking a break from your usual condescending, smartest guy in the room routine and realize you're shooting the messanger.

  12. #62
    Veteran gambit1990's Avatar
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    don’t be any rush at all to move him.

    wait until other teams get desperate after they see how badly the lakers destroy teams.

  13. #63
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    It's possible the Thunder see value in Smith and are willing to give up a decent 2nd.
    They'd only give up a decent second if he's worth more than that. They aren't going to pay full price for him. So unless the Spurs and Thunder have dramatically different ideas of a player's value, Smith will probably have to be good enough of a prospect for the Spurs to want to keep for them to get that pick you want for him.

    So easy that you can't come up with one, yet you're going to pontificate while attempting to confuse pla utes for fact.
    So wait, are you confusing your speculation and "reads" as facts? This whole thread is based on you combining conjecture with your prescriptive view on how the Spurs should be operating. I'm refusing to engage with the idea that Phoenix offering nothing and bad salary is so close to the most the Spurs could expect that they shouldn't go into the season to see if they could do better. A guy playing the position of biggest need in the league, who is coming off a great year and on an expiring contract is one of the closest things to pure value you're going to get. It's like trying to argue that I come up with a specific trade for the Spurs' first-rounder lest we default to believing only one team offering crap is interested in it.

    Starless, non glamour teams shouldn't perenially aspire to pick in the late lottery/mid round. Again, they'd have to see value in Smith or what he could fetch and potentially Saric eventually; not the late 2nd.
    The first part is merely your opinion, and we've debated that long enough to where you can probably forgive me for not addressing it again here. The second thing is the crux of the issue, and no one has disagreed with that. Well, Saric has no value no matter what. He's not going to get an asset worth having wasted cap space and cut another player to hold onto. But Smith being valuable will determine if the trade in this thread would be worth it. But the second-rounder is supposed to protect against Smith being a meh prospect, and it just doesn't do that.

    As usual, I'm being objective. You might notice if you were capable of taking a break from your usual condescending, smartest guy in the room routine and realize you're shooting the messanger.
    You aren't being objective, and your attempt to steer into an ad homenim is lame. You should own up to the fact that you have opinions and are free to state them, defend them and keep believing them without them being objective fact. You, I and everyone else on ST basically come here to squirt our opinions at each other and potentially support and speculate off them. It's all good. But you are having a hard time separating what you think the Spurs should do from what they want to do. It's cool being disappointed in what they might potentially do, but the question of whether the Spurs should trade Young or keep him is subjective, and you taking a side and then claiming objectivity undercuts you more than supports your position.

  14. #64
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    Chinooks right yalls opinions are just squirt...either from front or back still just squirt...yall just speculating all over da place making it a huge mess...yall speculate too much n yall go blind

  15. #65
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Chinooks right yalls opinions are just squirt...either from front or back still just squirt...yall just speculating all over da place making it a huge mess...yall speculate too much n yall go blind
    Dude what else do we do in ST?

  16. #66
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    They'd only give up a decent second if he's worth more than that. They aren't going to pay full price for him. So unless the Spurs and Thunder have dramatically different ideas of a player's value, Smith will probably have to be good enough of a prospect for the Spurs to want to keep for them to get that pick you want for him.



    So wait, are you confusing your speculation and "reads" as facts? This whole thread is based on you combining conjecture with your prescriptive view on how the Spurs should be operating. I'm refusing to engage with the idea that Phoenix offering nothing and bad salary is so close to the most the Spurs could expect that they shouldn't go into the season to see if they could do better. A guy playing the position of biggest need in the league, who is coming off a great year and on an expiring contract is one of the closest things to pure value you're going to get. It's like trying to argue that I come up with a specific trade for the Spurs' first-rounder lest we default to believing only one team offering crap is interested in it.



    The first part is merely your opinion, and we've debated that long enough to where you can probably forgive me for not addressing it again here. The second thing is the crux of the issue, and no one has disagreed with that. Well, Saric has no value no matter what. He's not going to get an asset worth having wasted cap space and cut another player to hold onto. But Smith being valuable will determine if the trade in this thread would be worth it. But the second-rounder is supposed to protect against Smith being a meh prospect, and it just doesn't do that.



    You aren't being objective, and your attempt to steer into an ad homenim is lame. You should own up to the fact that you have opinions and are free to state them, defend them and keep believing them without them being objective fact. You, I and everyone else on ST basically come here to squirt our opinions at each other and potentially support and speculate off them. It's all good. But you are having a hard time separating what you think the Spurs should do from what they want to do. It's cool being disappointed in what they might potentially do, but the question of whether the Spurs should trade Young or keep him is subjective, and you taking a side and then claiming objectivity undercuts you more than supports your position.
    And he might be.

    Except I never said that.

    No, I'm saying since you're so dismissive of my read, I'd imagine it'd be easy to come up with a single example to the contrary but we've established you can't.

    Already said as much. You're just so determined to dispute everything I said that you're not even comprehending it.

    So they should want to collect as many picks as possible that are unlikely to yield a foundational player?

    Again, never said otherwise. Said I could see the Spurs not viewing him as purely an albatross.

    At accusing me of all people of being a shrinking violet. Typical smug, convuluted, condescending psychobabble. When I said objective, I mean in this specific hypothetical, not in terms of trading Young in general.
    Last edited by TD 21; 09-18-2021 at 10:55 AM.

  17. #67
    44-50-21-1 Biggems's Avatar
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    Jalen Smith is only 21...he was still quite raw coming out of Maryland. He dominated in Summer League apparently. I know that it is just summer league, but Spurs fans cream their pants when one of our players dominate the SL. I would have no issue with the Spurs acquiring him via trade.

    Still, I would like to see how Thad fits this team to be honest. Maybe he can give us a Boris-lite type of role. If he can be anything close to Boris, huge score for our time. He offers what we need....quality defense at the 3-5 positions, good passer, and timely scorer. Also, his BBIQ, veteran leadership, and on-court demeanor are quite valuable.

  18. #68
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    And from what I’m gathering I think Thad is the only player this off season not to have reported to SA? May be wrong but if true wonder if they have an agreement to keep him away (nothing malicious or bad, just a mutual agreement) while they work things out so he doesn’t have to unnecessarily travel and he can just keep working out?
    I don't think an agreement like that happens without Thad himself wanting a trade. It would be similar to Dieng wanting out from the Grizzlies last season. It wasn't even about him wanting to play for a contender. It was about playing time. The Grizzlies were in the middle of a youth movement and playing a bunch of young bigs, and regardless of outcome, whether they won or lost, playing Dieng wasn't a priority for them. He wasn't washed and was in an expiring deal. They hoped to trade him, but were ultimately unable to get adequate compensation for him and waived him to do right by him.

    Thad's situation just reminds me too much of Dieng's. If the Spurs are committed to developing all the young bigs they have signed, Thad isn't going to be interested in riding the bench behind worse (but hopefully improving) young players when he still has gas in the tank, plus he's in a contract year. I think if that's the case he will be pushing for a trade from the very beginning and his value will not necessarily improve.

    That kind of makes me feel more urgency about trading. Now if the Spurs are interested in Thad to keep and play it changes the conversation, but it doesn't seem that way right now as you said.

    In any case, this trade didn't happen. Maybe Simmons is still in play and the Spurs are holding on to Thad for that reason.
    Last edited by SAGirl; 09-18-2021 at 03:44 PM. Reason: My kindle is horrible with the autocorrect

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