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  1. #201
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    thats a of a risky benefit for DJ.
    He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.

  2. #202
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    the shot difference on makes is .1. yes the percentage shows a difference but the makes/ misses does not. DJm also has a much better ast/to ratio. I also see more fight in Murray and wanting to lead. Lonnie seems fine to be a follwer and this is part of the reason why I dont see high hopes for him.

    I will agree that Muray needs to stop gambling so much but part of that is what he is being told to do to cover up for forbes. Part of the reason I am so hopefull Forbes is not resigned is because he hurts the team in so many ways. Most players dont like coming off the bench. While he did mope so did white. Both of their production when down when they were demoted. I actually like white coming off the bench playing 30 min. Walker will also be coming up for an extension soon so his much lower salary will not be around for long.

  3. #203
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    He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.
    the 1yr break could be a reason to give him one more chance but im afraid bourt his contract. His getting paid for potential. If he aint improve significantly next season nobody would want him. That would leave spurs with overpaid murray whose not worth for s5. As a 6th man maybe but the question is will he accept that role. If not spurs had a huge problem.
    Now spurs can get a solid 1st rnd pick for him. I doubt we could get a late 1st rnd pick next yr when we assume that his improvement will be the same as this yr.

  4. #204
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.
    Right, but if he doesn’t develop more, you get less at the next deadline or next summer. Sell high only works if teams perceive that there could be more development to be had. If you show them that there isn’t, his value plummets. It’s also not like we’re short on young guards.

  5. #205
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    the 1yr break could be a reason to give him one more chance but im afraid bourt his contract. His getting paid for potential. If he aint improve significantly next season nobody would want him. That would leave spurs with overpaid murray whose not worth for s5. As a 6th man maybe but the question is will he accept that role. If not spurs had a huge problem.
    Now spurs can get a solid 1st rnd pick for him. I doubt we could get a late 1st rnd pick next yr when we assume that his improvement will be the same as this yr.
    I gave him a bit of a pass this year, as he lost a full year of development. But need to see his defense return to previous levels, plus shooting continue to improve:

    - His 36-37% from three is acceptable, and if he can keep that in the mid-30s at higher volume, especially playing off the ball, he’s going to be an infinitely better fit on the floor with all lineups, particularly because the Spurs have other capable ball handlers

    - Turnovers are down per 100 possessions, but not sure if that’s him handling the ball less. Needs to become a much better distributor if he’s going to have the ball in his hands.

    - He’s serviceable when getting to the hoop at around 60%, and as others have mention he has a good mid-range game from 10 feet out (50%). He’s not good in between (3-10 feet, he’s at 33%) but still takes a lot of shots from there. To become more efficient, he needs to either take his shot from a bit further out... or take it to the rack and finish, or pass out if nothing is there.

    He rebounds well for his position. He should be a good defender, but took a notable step back last year. I’m still optimistic that he’ll improve, but if the Spurs think he’s a bad fit or they want to go a different direction, now is the time to move him. If he plateaus next year, that option may not be there.

  6. #206
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    I gave him a bit of a pass this year, as he lost a full year of development. But need to see his defense return to previous levels, plus shooting continue to improve:

    - His 36-37% from three is acceptable, and if he can keep that in the mid-30s at higher volume, especially playing off the ball, he’s going to be an infinitely better fit on the floor with all lineups, particularly because the Spurs have other capable ball handlers

    - Turnovers are down per 100 possessions, but not sure if that’s him handling the ball less. Needs to become a much better distributor if he’s going to have the ball in his hands.

    - He’s serviceable when getting to the hoop at around 60%, and as others have mention he has a good mid-range game from 10 feet out (50%). He’s not good in between (3-10 feet, he’s at 33%) but still takes a lot of shots from there. To become more efficient, he needs to either take his shot from a bit further out... or take it to the rack and finish, or pass out if nothing is there.

    He rebounds well for his position. He should be a good defender, but took a notable step back last year. I’m still optimistic that he’ll improve, but if the Spurs think he’s a bad fit or they want to go a different direction, now is the time to move him. If he plateaus next year, that option may not be there.
    Don't be fooled by high shooting percentages on low volume or without adding some context to the stats, people. Especially for 3pt shooting. It's not about what % Dejounte is shooting... It's about how willing he is to let it fly, how willing he is to take a 3 on a pull-up versus a catch-and-shoot, it's about his decision-making and how he balances penetration with outside shooting (or in this case, fails to).

    Dejounte does not play good off-ball offense. Where have y'all been seeing this to act like it's a real possibility? He's of little use if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He's not much of a cutter at all, he FAR TOO OFTEN hesitates when receiving a pass beyond the 3pt line, not only taking away the opportunity for a rhythm 3, but also giving the defense time to adjust and recover, and also exposing the fact that he'd rather drive than shoot (which every single modern NBA defense is GLAD to see). He could be shooting 43% from 3 and the reasoning would be the same. I tend to agree with the fact that DJ is not a "true PG", but the truth is that he's hardly a "true SG" either. Besides the long midrange, already one of the most depreciated shots in the game and probably only going to lower in value, Dejounte is simply not a good shooter. Could he get better somewhat? Yes, years of training will surely provide modest improvements. But he's not a "natural" or born shooter, and that's something that you can't really change - definitely not something you want from your starting SG.

    It's the same as with his vision, passing, dribbling, IQ. You're nigh-fantasizing that he can be a great player and earn his contract's worth, IF he can get significantly better in practically every area of his game. Some people might be okay with that gamble... I'd rather draft someone (in the Spurs case, give minutes to someone they've already drafted, like Lonnie at SG) who's a natural at these basic things, and has to work on more advanced areas of their game.

  7. #207
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    The Spurs need to take a page out of the Heat's book. Yeah, they have the advantage of a glamor market to lure superstars/stars and as ever luck played a part, but they've also been flexible, unwilling to let ego or emotions get in the way of what's best for the franchise.

    They gave bloated contracts to middling youngish veterans (Whiteside, Waiters, etc.), but didn't hesitate to have them take a back seat to middling youth (Richardson and Winslow). After empowering/extending said youth, they realized they weren't good enough for central roles, so they traded them and did the same with better youth (Adebayo, Herro, etc.)

    This organization needs to practice what they preach and get over themselves. For the first time in a long time, they've ac ulated depth of youth. The next step is targeting specifics by looking to parlay the looming problem that is Murray (plus 11) into a potential core piece.
    Last edited by TD 21; 09-24-2020 at 04:55 PM.

  8. #208
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    I am open to trading him but if we are actually going to get value for him is the question or let me ask this question what would you be willing to trade him for lets say 8 - 12th pick or 16 - 16thpick or 16 -24 pick? What pick would you say OK we are not getting perceived value for this trade would it be anything after 25?

  9. #209
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    I am open to trading him but if we are actually going to get value for him is the question or let me ask this question what would you be willing to trade him for lets say 8 - 12th pick or 16 - 16thpick or 16 -24 pick? What pick would you say OK we are not getting perceived value for this trade would it be anything after 25?
    Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

    All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.

  10. #210
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    Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

    All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.
    Not eve in a suspected weak draft (though I don't know if it's much different from a typical year in that range) is there precedent of a player the caliber of Murray, with a questionable at best extension kicking in, yielding a 7th pick on his own.

    I agree that the Spurs would need a secondary piece back, but it would still top out as the clear worst piece of the trade. The absolute peak would probably be Brown, but it'd be more likely to be Snell or even Thomas.

  11. #211
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    Murray has a career as an NBA journeyman, not as a starter.

  12. #212
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    Not eve in a suspected weak draft (though I don't know if it's much different from a typical year in that range) is there precedent of a player the caliber of Murray, with a questionable at best extension kicking in, yielding a 7th pick on his own.

    I agree that the Spurs would need a secondary piece back, but it would still top out as the clear worst piece of the trade. The absolute peak would probably be Brown, but it'd be more likely to be Snell or even Thomas.
    Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.

  13. #213
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    Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.
    That "bad offer" is probably about as good as it gets for Murray (took Saric and 11 to get to 6 last season). Questionable past which initially scared teams off, torn ACL, due $64 million over 4 years and doesn't provide a single desirable offensive skill nor has he accepted the role he needs to play.

    Turning that into a potential core building block would kill two birds with one stone.

    I know it's just an example, but there's no reason to think the Magic would be interested. Fultz is a project with similar weaknesses and better play making ability. At 15, if they want a point/combo, most or all of Anthony, Maxey, Lewis Jr., Terry, Hampton, Maledon, should be available.
    Last edited by TD 21; 09-24-2020 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #214
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.
    The idea I kicked around was Murray for #7 straight up. Certainly not Murray + #11 for #7. The Pistons hardly have anyone to send back to add to that and the ones they do have aren't good enough to balance the deal.

    Not that Detroit would do this with the loaded 2021 draft coming up, but would you do Murray + #11 for #7 and Detroit's 2021 first? Unequivocal yes/no or does it depend on the protection on the pick? Unless Detroit gets some huge FA signing it's hard to see them not finishing in the bottom 10 in terms of record. Again, just spitballing here based on salary charts; I don't follow other teams enough to know how they would value Murray, who they might send back, etc.

  15. #215
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    Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

    All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.

    The Spurs won't trade up blind. They just won't. If there's somebody they really want to get, they would trade Murray without question. They've proven that before.

    They gave Murray a contract based on what he could do, not on what he has done. He has an at ude like he's a proven commodity. Bad combo.

  16. #216
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    That "bad offer" is probably about as good as it gets for Murray. Questionable past which initially scared teams off, torn ACL, due $64 million over 4 years and doesn't provide a single desirable offensive skill nor has he accepted the role he needs to play.
    I think we agree on our evaluation of Murray as a Spurs. I don't think we agree on how other teams will evaluate him. I think they'll see a young guard with an interesting pull-up game and a defensive reputation. The role Murray needs to accept with the Spurs isn't necessarily the role he needs to accept with every team. I think there are multiple teams in the league that play a style more suited to his strengths and who don't have multiple players who need to create their own shots.

    I know it's just an example, but there's no reason to think the Magic would be interested. Fultz is a project with similar weaknesses and better play making ability. At 15, if they want a point/combo, most or all of Anthony, Maxey, Lewis Jr., Terry, Hampton, Maledon, should be available.
    I don't think the Magic are looking for a particular skill-set. They only have one building block on their team, and that guy is constantly hurt anyway. They don't care about who fits with Gordon or Fournier or whatever. You're right, it was just an example though. For all I know, it's a three-team trade where Orlando give up their pick to get something they want so a third team can pay for Murray.

    Turning that into a potential core building block would kill two birds with one stone.
    It's all about the player. Moving up to 10 would be worth Murray for the right player. But I'm not looking at 7 as an obvious potential core building block. I have my guys who'd be interesting there. But that's the point where it's likely for them to be gone, and it seems better to go for two guys who could be solid starters to put around the eventual star or to parlay into better picks later on rather than just shooting for a guy drafted a bit higher.

  17. #217
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    The idea I kicked around was Murray for #7 straight up. Certainly not Murray + #11 for #7. The Pistons hardly have anyone to send back to add to that and the ones they do have aren't good enough to balance the deal.

    Not that Detroit would do this with the loaded 2021 draft coming up, but would you do Murray + #11 for #7 and Detroit's 2021 first? Unequivocal yes/no or does it depend on the protection on the pick? Unless Detroit gets some huge FA signing it's hard to see them not finishing in the bottom 10 in terms of record. Again, just spitballing here based on salary charts; I don't follow other teams enough to know how they would value Murray, who they might send back, etc.
    The protections would need to be generous to SA, including eventually becoming completely unprotected and not shunted to seconds like say the Toronto pick would've. I'd consider a future Detroit pick with those protections to be worth Murray, especially for cap space instead of ballast. But I guess I'd be more open to like Kennard in that scenario.

  18. #218
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    I think we agree on our evaluation of Murray as a Spurs. I don't think we agree on how other teams will evaluate him. I think they'll see a young guard with an interesting pull-up game and a defensive reputation. The role Murray needs to accept with the Spurs isn't necessarily the role he needs to accept with every team. I think there are multiple teams in the league that play a style more suited to his strengths and who don't have multiple players who need to create their own shots.



    I don't think the Magic are looking for a particular skill-set. They only have one building block on their team, and that guy is constantly hurt anyway. They don't care about who fits with Gordon or Fournier or whatever. You're right, it was just an example though. For all I know, it's a three-team trade where Orlando give up their pick to get something they want so a third team can pay for Murray.



    It's all about the player. Moving up to 10 would be worth Murray for the right player. But I'm not looking at 7 as an obvious potential core building block. I have my guys who'd be interesting there. But that's the point where it's likely for them to be gone, and it seems better to go for two guys who could be solid starters to put around the eventual star or to parlay into better picks later on rather than just shooting for a guy drafted a bit higher.
    Front office executive aren't casual fans though, they'll know about him inside and out. He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.

    I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.

    Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.

  19. #219
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Front office executive aren't casual fans though.
    Eh.

    He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.
    It's not really about him being a creator. It's about him NOT having to be one and having him just run around and do stuff. Multiple teams have offenses there guards don't have to set up others or run the show. Even if DJM just played like he did when he was a rookie, he'd be a lot better with the Spurs. The issue is that SA in particular can't tell him to do that.

    I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.
    I think they'd've cared more about that had Isaac not been hurt. That he's going to miss the season anyway means they'll have to retool.

    Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.
    I agree, but I don't agree that turning Murray into such a player is worth 11 too. Again, for the right player, blah blah. Just in general, I think they have better odds from drafting two of those players than from just getting the first pick of the bunch out of a hat. If were we talking about 11 and 25 for 7, then I would feel differently. I might still decline, but it's tougher.

  20. #220
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    Re: Kennard.... I'd prefer to trade Murray straight up for #7 and keep #11, however I'd probably be willing to include #11 to get #7 and Kennard if I didn't have a better offer elsewhere. I believe Murray has good value around the league right know and I expect that value to be a good bit lower after next season. So there's there's a little bit of a 'premium', if you will, in my mind for moving him now.

    I also think Kennard would fit pretty well here, I just wish there was a little more time on his current contract before he gets paid.

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    So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.

  22. #222
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    So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.
    Murray will hurt his value more. He'd be a negative, while Walker would be barely positive

  23. #223
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    Re: Kennard.... I'd prefer to trade Murray straight up for #7 and keep #11, however I'd probably be willing to include #11 to get #7 and Kennard if I didn't have a better offer elsewhere. I believe Murray has good value around the league right know and I expect that value to be a good bit lower after next season. So there's there's a little bit of a 'premium', if you will, in my mind for moving him now.

    I also think Kennard would fit pretty well here, I just wish there was a little more time on his current contract before he gets paid.
    If i was detroit i would do this, kennard has 2 bad knees i don't want to be the one paying his extension. I would get a starting PG who has great work ethic to improve and still have my pick of high upside guys like Pat, Kira, RJ or valuable wings in Bey, Nesmith, Vassel.

  24. #224
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    So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.
    Without a doubt, Murray. Think about it - next year, his contract kicks in, and you're suddenly paying Dejounte 14M instead of about 1M (might be a bit off on these figures). No team is content with paying such a large amount of money for "average" production, and next season would be DJ's second year removed from his injury, which takes away the excuse of "getting back into the game" that he had this year. For Murray to be average next season, would be a disaster for the Spurs, tbh. Lonnie, on the other hand... Still on his rookie deal, a few years younger than Murray, hasn't had a solid chance yet to gel with the team (I know this was a long season, but y'all do remember he was being put in the doghouse this very season, right?).

    There's no question about it - the clock is officially ticking on Murray, if it hasn't run out already. I wouldn't be surprised to see him traded this off-season or the next one, and quite frankly I'd support the move wholeheartedly. The only question is: does this new Spurs FO have the balls to do it? Let's see what Wright does...

  25. #225
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    Front office executive aren't casual fans though, they'll know about him inside and out. He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.

    I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.

    Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.
    Nobody should know Murray inside out more than the Spurs' front office and they overpaid him.

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