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  1. #951
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Yeah, sometimes people forget how rare it can be to find a legit strong impact player. There was a post the other day about Dejounte where someone said he won't be a star, but will only be a good role player like Andre Iguodala... if Dejounte plays with the impact of a prime AI at any point in the next few years, the Spurs will be absolutely thrilled.
    Prime Iggy was a star. No one on the team projects to be that good. If the Spurs found someone that good at 11, it'd be amazing. But yeah, Murray getting to be as good as GS Iggy would be amazing too. I think he can become a really good role-player and that that'd be valuable to the Spurs and well worth the pick and investment. But I don't think he'd get there mentally unless he is on a roster with objective stars who can humble him.

  2. #952
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    Was looking at old footage of Spurs picks and ran into these highlights:



    God I remember the hype surrounding this guy. I was right there at the front of the train creaming myself of his summer-league play and confident he'd be able to take over for Duncan as PF of the future. Still think he had the skill to be a good NBA player, especially back then when being a stretch-five was almost unheard of. But he never had the mentality to get it done. He looks a bit better than he did back then, but he was a guy who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond and let the game pass him by. Keep dominating those YMCA scrubs, Ryan.

  3. #953
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Prime Iggy was a star. No one on the team projects to be that good. If the Spurs found someone that good at 11, it'd be amazing. But yeah, Murray getting to be as good as GS Iggy would be amazing too. I think he can become a really good role-player and that that'd be valuable to the Spurs and well worth the pick and investment. But I don't think he'd get there mentally unless he is on a roster with objective stars who can humble him.
    I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as compe ion and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a compe ive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

    R. DeMurre I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for

  4. #954
    Like I said... tmtcsc's Avatar
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    Can we all agree the Spurs can move on from Murray and Metu? Forbes off the bench for spot minutes / shooting wouldn't be terrible. We just have to pray someone is foolish enough to bet on Murray's upside in a trade. Gawd, what a waste. Never liked that dude's game and he never amounted to much at all.

  5. #955
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    I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as compe ion and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a compe ive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

    R. DeMurre I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for
    He will never be as good as Iggy that just a plain fact. I think the best he could be would be to Green not as good as one on one defender but with better mid range. So if I am him I am telling Pop to move me to SG and working on my 3 ball and mid range all off season long.

  6. #956
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    Yes he is or at least they're equal. Objectively, Clarke out played Poeltl this year.

    Why do you think a guy drafted in the top 10 two seasons before is filler? Do you think the draft pick was filler too? Do you think Hill was filler in the Leonard trade too just because he was a third-year, 25-year-old?
    based on what? ppg? Lol

    because they needed to make the salaries work. otherwise Poeltl would still be a Raptor

  7. #957
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    I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as compe ion and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a compe ive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

    R. DeMurre I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for
    I don't remember the Westbrook analogy, but I think that's spot on. I honestly don't think anyone should use him as a model... The last thing the Spurs need is a high usage rate PG who takes way too many inefficient shots.

  8. #958
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    based on what? ppg? Lol
    Are you trying to troll now or something? Why is your base assumption that Poeltl was better that stats (raw, rate and impact), role and team success aren't enough evidence? It's not like Jakob made the All Star team or something to where you can point to some outside measure of his greater value. Moreover, why are you obsessed with continuing to make this a Clarke thread? Literally everyone else has moved on to other topics, and you're here loling at people without providing anything for your claims. For example:

    because they needed to make the salaries work. otherwise Poeltl would still be a Raptor
    This is just a lie. They didn't need Jakob to make the salaries work. Why do you just keep saying off the top of your head and calling it a rebuttal?

  9. #959
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as compe ion and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a compe ive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

    R. DeMurre I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for
    I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.

  10. #960
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Murray models his game after Crawford. I don't see how that's even debatable. I think Pop's the only thing keeping DeJounte from going full chucker. Especially for Seattle kids, Crawford was really influential, as much as any player outside Lebron and Kobe.

  11. #961
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    He will never be as good as Iggy that just a plain fact. I think the best he could be would be to Green not as good as one on one defender but with better mid range. So if I am him I am telling Pop to move me to SG and working on my 3 ball and mid range all off season long.
    That's fine. I merely said that's what he should aim for because of his style of play. Green was hardly a ball handler. Iggy was a secondary playmaker, chose his spots to shoot, and played good defense. All I'm saying is he should stop trying to challenge everybody like a star would do because he is far from one. Once he realizes to stick to things not above him, he can be solid. He just need to "keep it simple, stupid" vs going for the highlight pass or crossover. He's like the dumb kid who is still stuck on his street ball days

  12. #962
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.
    A recent video of Murray praising Johnson in front of his face saying "thats the player of the game, man" tells me otherwise. He had this look also of a proud father of his son. I'll try to dig it up. This was like last week.

  13. #963
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    A recent video of Murray praising Johnson in front of his face saying "thats the player of the game, man" tells me otherwise. He had this look also of a proud father of his son. I'll try to dig it up. This was like last week.
    I think you confused what I said for me saying Murray's a bad teammate or locker-room guy. DJM's not a crab. He doesn't want his teammates to be worse just to pump himself up. But his belief in himself as a star isn't going to change just because there are other good players on his team. He's going to see himself as the team's leader and be happy his supporting cast looks good. That realization that he's actually part of Johnson's cast won't hit him for a long time.

  14. #964
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    Are you trying to troll now or something? Why is your base assumption that Poeltl was better that stats (raw, rate and impact), role and team success aren't enough evidence? It's not like Jakob made the All Star team or something to where you can point to some outside measure of his greater value. Moreover, why are you obsessed with continuing to make this a Clarke thread? Literally everyone else has moved on to other topics, and you're here loling at people without providing anything for your claims. For example:



    This is just a lie. They didn't need Jakob to make the salaries work. Why do you just keep saying off the top of your head and calling it a rebuttal?
    No lie. You forget Kawhis trade kicker. We‘ll see what Clarke & Poeltl will achieve.
    Last edited by ragas; 08-12-2020 at 02:07 PM.

  15. #965
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    And Samanic too of course.

  16. #966
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.
    I never b4 saw him as selfish frankly. I just thought he was not a talented passer. He didn't strike me as a guy who wouldn't pass or surrender the ball, he was trying not to TO first of all and then trying to get LMA the ball where he wanted or some set that Pop wanted. He wasn't talented enough to be creating plays on his own. Apparently he has been given the green light to branch out in the bubble. So I am hoping this is just a "bubble" phenomenon and that he can continue to develop away from selfish play, but we will see. I'd imagine the Spurs would stop that if it becomes a problem, but I don't know.

  17. #967
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I never b4 saw him as selfish frankly. I just thought he was not a talented passer. He didn't strike me as a guy who wouldn't pass or surrender the ball, he was trying not to TO first of all and then trying to get LMA the ball where he wanted or some set that Pop wanted. He wasn't talented enough to be creating plays on his own. Apparently he has been given the green light to branch out in the bubble. So I am hoping this is just a "bubble" phenomenon and that he can continue to develop away from selfish play, but we will see. I'd imagine the Spurs would stop that if it becomes a problem, but I don't know.
    I don't think it's about being selfish per se. I think it's about "showing what he can do". From what I see, if Murray is going to continue to start and Johnson starts with him, Murray's going to be at best the third option behind White and Johnson (this is assuming DeRozan and Aldridge move on). I think as his opportunities shrink, he's going to try harder and harder to make the most of those opportunities. This is actually a pretty natural result to players not getting touches. Most players want chances to score, and while they're fine passing the ball in a BG-style offense where the best man is the open man, if they never get good finishing opportunities, they'll try to create some.

    I also think you can't really be a star if you aren't selfish to some extent. You might pass and get a lot of assists, but it pretty much comes hand-in-hand with being a star that you think you need to control the ball as much as possible. I have little doubt Murray sees himself as a future star, and it's going to be hard to change his mind. I think he'd be perfectly happy if Johnson, Walker, White and anyone else also became stars, so long as he wasn't just a role-player.

  18. #968
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    No lie. You forget Kawhis trade kicker. We‘ll see what Clarke & Poeltl will achieve.
    It's still a lie. The trade worked even with the kicker. And this is ignoring that there was other filler that could've been in the deal like CJ Miles who basically didn't play that year outside of OG having that episode with his father. That would've even out the salaries completely and given the Spurs a guy at a position of need. Instead, they took Poeltl and paid Toronto $5 Million while running without any legit wing depth.

  19. #969
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    Probably been discussed, but I think Milwaukee could be a spot for Rudy Gay.

    Ilyasova and DJ Wilson after the turn of the new NBA season adds up money-wise and of course add in their pick they're getting from Indiana. Maybe they could even negotiate Ilyasova into moving his guarantee date back in return for a partial guarantee of 1-2 million.

    Maybe Milwaukee will be desperate enough in what could be Giannis' last year to make that kind of move.
    Not bad, but the Bucks aren't adding a 1st to that. As Chinook said, the Spurs would have to view Wilson as the value. He's been underwhelming, but still relatively young and hasn't received much of a chance. Plays a position of need and retains intriguing tools, so could be worth a flyer.

    If they don't win the championship and feel they have to make a significant move to convince Antetokounmpo to re-sign, they should try to make the following 3 team trade . . .

    To Bucks: Paul, Nader
    To Lakers: Bledsoe
    To Thunder: Pacers 1st, Hill, Ilyasova, Wilson, Caldwell-Pope, Bradley
    Last edited by TD 21; 08-12-2020 at 04:50 PM.

  20. #970
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    It's still a lie. The trade worked even with the kicker. And this is ignoring that there was other filler that could've been in the deal like CJ Miles who basically didn't play that year outside of OG having that episode with his father. That would've even out the salaries completely and given the Spurs a guy at a position of need. Instead, they took Poeltl and paid Toronto $5 Million while running without any legit wing depth.
    Come on. CJ Miles? That's ridiculous. There's a difference between a "key part" and an acceptable filler. Derozan & Kawhi were the key parts of the trade, maybe Danny Green (for Toronto) and the late 1st rounder (for the Spurs). If you say that Poeltl was a key part, you're so wrong as someone can be. Even if you repeat once again "It's a lie". The Spurs took - as a filler - what the Raptors were willing to give away and what was acceptable for the Spurs.

    btw. Actually we were talking about drafting and the question if you take a high floor guy or a high ceiling guy. Apparently the Spurs took who they think has a high ceiling. They may be wrong or they may be right. We'll see. But I don't critizize them for wanting to take a flyer at #19 instead of taking the safe pick.
    Last edited by ragas; 08-13-2020 at 02:02 AM.

  21. #971
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    Ok question for Ragas and Chinook with regards to Precious Achiuwa do you see him as a good pick for us and who do you think is better him or Clarke?
    I looked at his draft profile. I would prefer a 4 (small ball 5) or 3/4, who can shoot. I can't see Achiuwa filling this need. He's no good 3p-shooter in college and his bad free-throw-percentage makes no hope either. At 6-9 he's undersized for a 5, but he has a 7-2 wingspan, a great motor, is mobile and plays good defense. His best position may be at the 5. If Poeltl leaves he's an option with a similar skillset for the Spurs, but I'm not sure I would take him at #11. I see him in the #15-#20 range.
    @Clarke: I would prefer Achiuwa, because he's longer, younger and has more potential as a defender.

    At #11 I would go for Nesmith, Williams, Bey (guessing Toppin, Avdija, Vassell aren‘t available)
    Last edited by ragas; 08-13-2020 at 04:48 AM.

  22. #972
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    So, after doing a bit of research and watching some tape, I came up with my top 6 + Homer bonus list:

    1) Devin Vassell - F - 6'7" - 6'10" wingspan - 19 years

    Unsexisest of picks, but seems like a pretty safe bet for a 3 and D guy that could start playing right away.

    2) Obi Toppin - PF/C - 6'9" - 7'2" wingspan - 22 years

    Sexier (est?) pick. Terriffic athlete and very polished all around offensive game. It's probably more of a center than a PF in today's NBA. I bet my house the Warriors pick him to start at center next season.

    3) Patrick Williams - F - 6'8" - 6'11" wingspan - 18 years

    Only thing keeping him from being my number one choice is that he seems a bit of a stiff trying to move laterally on defense.

    4) Deni Avdija - F - 6'8" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

    Could have the highest ceiling in the entire draft. Could also be a total bust. ty wingspan for his size.

    5) Saddiq Bey - F - 6'8" - 7'0" wingspan - 21 years

    Another unsexy 3 and D pick. I love me some unsexy 3 and D picks, tbh.

    6) Isaak Okoro - SG/SF - 6'6" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

    Raw athletic freak. From what I read, projected to go higher than 11.

    Homer Bonus: Leandro Bolmaro - G - 6'7" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

    Projected to go late first, early second. If somehow he makes it all the way to the Spurs second round pick, we should go for it to keep that Argie tradition going . 6'7" guy that can play Point Guard. Great lateral quickness to defend smaller guys. Needs to work on the consistency of his shot.

  23. #973
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Here's a 1 hour and 30 minute video of the good and bad of Devin Vassell. After watching this, i just want to reiterate how much I dislike him as a prospect. He has awful shot selection, almost no feel for the game on offense, his form looks terrible, he runs around on offense like he doesnt know where to be and ends up killing the spacing and bumping into his own teammates. Dude is dumb as a rock on offense. Compared to his teammate, Pat Williams, he looks like a scrub. Pat is also about 2" taller than him.
    Why do you say that? From what I read, he shot mostly from spot ups. On his first year he took only one off the dribble shot and on his second year 30 something. Have you seen many games of him?

  24. #974
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Why do you say that? From what I read, he shot mostly from spot ups. On his first year he took only one off the dribble shot and on his second year 30 something. Have you seen many games of him?
    Watch the video and you will see.

    I just saw your post above and you had him #1...omg. Spend time watching players and not relying on reading bad scouting reports or stay off player eval...

    Bro dont even reply to me, just wait a couple years and you'll find im right about Vassell... Ive learned youre the really argumentative type and ive got no energy for it... A friend committed suicide and i barely had sleep

  25. #975
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Also, anyone who thinks Saddiq Bey is a decent prospect literally looks at only three things: age, position, and length. Watch the guy play and his terrible shooting form. This dude is literally not better than DeMarre Carroll.

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