Official San Antonio Spurs 2021 Free Agency Discussion Thread

[exstatic]

He hasn't fixed DeRozan's shot.

DD’s issues with the three are between his ears. He was shooting them just fine, and in moderate volume at the beginning of the season.

[poopbox]

My mind is sort of blown by how many people think Simmons wouldn't be a massive upgrade over any player on the roster. I do think there's a limit to what the team can trade for him, but it'd be easy to make a playoff team around him. The only player who'd even have an argument against him is a fictionally fully healthy Derrick White. Theoretically, the Spurs could trade Murray, Poeltl and incentive to take Simmons into cap space. If they then do the DMDR for Kuzma/KCP trade, they'd have up to $10 Million in cap space. Earmark the room exception to bring Dieng back, draft a center like Queta with the not-12 pick (28 in my Capulator mock-up),and you have a pretty chunk of coin to add shooting or even bring Mills back. Round out the roster buy locking up Weatherspoon and KBD to long-term cheap deals, and you get:

White, Mills, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, KCP, KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

I'd prefer to swap Mills out for a capable guard who can run an offense when White is hurt, but Patty should fit well with Simmons, and the culture and all that. An alternative to either Kuzma or Caldwell-Pop could be a Schroeder S&T, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. Maybe the Spurs could take back Hill in the Simmons trade while the Lakers sent Dennis to Philly? That might actually work better, and it would be fun to have George back after the last few crazy years to his career. They'd have to find a rotation-caliber forward with the salary saved though.

White, Hill, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, (FA Wing), KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

Or other combos. Either way, I think a team built around Simmons is functional and better than what SA is running with currently. It'd not hard to have good spacing if you don't devote like 60 percent of your minutes to non-shooters. Swapping out Jakob for Dieng or another stretch-five is crucial, so keeping White and Vassell becomes a huge deal, as is getting a guy to spell White and take over for Dieng as he stops being even a technical starter. The center problem would likely need to be addressed with the MLE the following season

A massive upgrade at doing what exactly ? Not shooting 3's ? Not making free throws ? Being so scared at shooting the ball that you literally pass out of an open dunk that might have won a playoff series ?

Build around Ben Simmons ? WHAT ? What exactly are you building around a 6 "10" power forward who wants to be a point guard but can't shoot, won't shoot, and can't make freethrows ?

The spurs are pretty much devoid of outside shooting and your answer to that question is to trade for Ben ing Simmons ?

Bring Patty Mills back ? Why ? So he can shoot 28% from 3 in the last 30 games of the season like he has done the last 3 years ?

Are you secretly Brian Wright ?

[poopbox]

What's disturbing about Simmons is he hasn't improved an inch since he started in the league. Last year was adv. statistically his worst. That's forgiveable, but otherwise he's not doing much of anything right now he wasn't four years ago.

Which makes sense because outside of being tall and running fast Ben Simmons doesn't actually have a high level basketball skill...

When he gets traded to a team that doesn't have a dominant big like Embiid to carry him he is going to be a significantly worse player...

[Chinook]

A massive upgrade at doing what exactly ? Not shooting 3's ? Not making free throws ? Being so scared at shooting the ball that you literally pass out of an open dunk that might have won a playoff series ?

Build around Ben Simmons ? WHAT ? What exactly are you building around a 6 "10" power forward who wants to be a point guard but can't shoot, won't shoot, and can't make freethrows ?

The spurs are pretty much devoid of outside shooting and your answer to that question is to trade for Ben ing Simmons ?

Bring Patty Mills back ? Why ? So he can shoot 28% from 3 in the last 30 games of the season like he has done the last 3 years ?

Are you secretly Brian Wright ?

Yeah, way to act like a baby...

Yes, the plan would be to build around a guy who even with those flaws would be the best player on the team. I'm not for trading like eight firsts for him. But if the cost is mainly those guy and present draft value, then you can build and still be flexible.

The Spurs' problem isn't shooting. The Murray, White, DeRozan, Johnson Poeltl lineup's problem shooting. The White, Vassell, Johnson, Simmons, Dieng lineup has good spacing. The problem is that their main perimeter players struggle with shooting, making it hard to put shooting around them. Shooting will only really be fixed by subtracting more poor shooters than you add, and this deal is a net-two shoooters upgraded.

Mills is actually a good player. His FIBA performance is showing he's still fine physically. Obviously, him being an icon of Simmons' home country helps. And as I said in the above post, I don't necessarily want him back, but he'll probably be back anyway. May as well figure that into off-season plans, since he'd end up blowing them up by randomly eating cap space otherwise.

[John B]

Eh. I get all the old school and doing whatever it takes to have a better winning situation, that doesnt mean I agree with it. Theres always a better way to handle things. In any other professional environment, What Damian said is poor leadership, simple as that.

Kobe would also call out his teammates. Likewise Curry earlier in the season. It depends how much weight that player has. I think Lilliard is doing his part to get a Collins or a Simmons. He’s not getting any younger, with all these players forming super-teams.

[Chinook]

Which makes sense because outside of being tall and running fast Ben Simmons doesn't actually have a high level basketball skill...

When he gets traded to a team that doesn't have a dominant big like Embiid to carry him he is going to be a significantly worse player...

Embiid's not carrying Simmons. They are basically both trying to do their things without the other. Obviously Joel is the better player, and I'd far prefer trying to acquire him. But he dominates the ball in the post, which means a lot of the time, Simmons is sort of uselessly sitting in the dunker spot. A team who's actually built around Simmons would have a role-playing stretch-five who basically let Simmons have the paint to himself.

[Chinook]

How can you be so high on Simmons yet so low on DJ? I know you and some others on here done believe me but DJ is the better player and will continue to be the better player. You keep talking about spacing but then you want to bring in Ben when DJ shoots and makes more 3s and way more mid range 2s. you mention needing a floor spacing 5 with Ben (which I agree) but embid shot 3s in Philly and it did not work. why would it work here?

Okay, so Murray isn't better than Simmons. Like I hope he improves and becomes a better player, but he wasn't last year. It wasn't all that close outside of counting stats. To put it this way, folks are killing Ben over not shooting and for being bad at free throws, but he was still way more efficient than DJM. While Murray did have a more positive effect on the offense (5.4 to Simmons' 4) that is because Philly' bench had a higher offensive rating in general. There wasn't much of a drop-off because Philly was a contender and the Spurs had like Walker and Eubanks as their main bench players. In other offensive metrics like eFG% and AST% Simmons came out on top.

Saying Ben has no offensive skill is wrong. He's good at scoring on the shots he takes and at getting other guys the ball in good spots. A team can put together a fine enough offense with him on the floor, despite his shooting. He's a flawed player -- heavily so. That puts a cap on what a team can do with him as their best player if he can't fix them somewhat. But to be clear, we're talking about the cap being a second-round loss or a WCF run if there are a whole bunch of injuries. We aren't talking about the play-in being the cap like we're looking at now with the current perimeter players. Simmons isn't my top target to fill the PF hole, but he's certainly viable if the deal is good enough.

The point of my post was to say a) Simmons is better than the guys on the roster (since that's in dispute on ST and basically nowhere else) and b) It's not hard to build a team around Simmons using mostly the guys on the roster.

[John B]

I think we have a chance with Simmons via Mills. But yeah, it would mean getting Murray and Poeltl out and replacing them with shooters. I don’t think Simmons would play PF, but has to guard big in the defensive end, rim run, maybe switch with Vassell/Keldon on the defensive end. I think if PATFO thinks they can fix, and Simmons could use a fresh start, an ally like Mills could be the ticket.

Yup I’m sold, bring in Simmons . Maybe draft Duarte then.

[rankingtear]

My mind is sort of blown by how many people think Simmons wouldn't be a massive upgrade over any player on the roster. I do think there's a limit to what the team can trade for him, but it'd be easy to make a playoff team around him. The only player who'd even have an argument against him is a fictionally fully healthy Derrick White. Theoretically, the Spurs could trade Murray, Poeltl and incentive to take Simmons into cap space. If they then do the DMDR for Kuzma/KCP trade, they'd have up to $10 Million in cap space. Earmark the room exception to bring Dieng back, draft a center like Queta with the not-12 pick (28 in my Capulator mock-up),and you have a pretty chunk of coin to add shooting or even bring Mills back. Round out the roster buy locking up Weatherspoon and KBD to long-term cheap deals, and you get:

White, Mills, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, KCP, KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

I'd prefer to swap Mills out for a capable guard who can run an offense when White is hurt, but Patty should fit well with Simmons, and the culture and all that. An alternative to either Kuzma or Caldwell-Pop could be a Schroeder S&T, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. Maybe the Spurs could take back Hill in the Simmons trade while the Lakers sent Dennis to Philly? That might actually work better, and it would be fun to have George back after the last few crazy years to his career. They'd have to find a rotation-caliber forward with the salary saved though.

White, Hill, Jones
Vassell, Walker, Weatherspoon
Johnson, (FA Wing), KBD
Simmons, Kuzma, Samanic
Dieng, Eubanks, Queta

Or other combos. Either way, I think a team built around Simmons is functional and better than what SA is running with currently. It'd not hard to have good spacing if you don't devote like 60 percent of your minutes to non-shooters. Swapping out Jakob for Dieng or another stretch-five is crucial, so keeping White and Vassell becomes a huge deal, as is getting a guy to spell White and take over for Dieng as he stops being even a technical starter. The center problem would likely need to be addressed with the MLE the following season

I hate this lineups that basically needs you to trade for Myles Turner. DJ & Poeltl + some offense in between is much more flexible way to build a lineup.

[Chinook]

I think we have a chance with Simmons via Mills. But yeah, it would mean getting Murray and Poeltl out and replacing them with shooters. I don’t think Simmons would play PF, but has to guard big in the defensive end, rim run, maybe switch with Vassell/Keldon on the defensive end. I think if PATFO thinks they can fix, and Simmons could use a fresh start, an ally like Mills could be the ticket.

Yup I’m sold, bring in Simmons . Maybe draft Duarte then.

The beauty of a White, Vassell, Johnson, Simmons, Dieng lineup is that you can list it as Simmons, White, Vassell, Johnson, Dieng. That soothes Ben's ego while actually keeping those guys in positions they basically played last year anyway. Johnson's ability to guard a lot of fours means you can legit direct-match or cross-guard, basically moving Simmons around to guard the best player while White moves around to guard the second-best.

[Chinook]

I hate this lineups that basically needs you to trade for Myles Turner. DJ & Poeltl + some offense in between is much more flexible way to build a lineup.

Stretch-five isn't that rare of a position anymore. As I mentioned, the Spurs already have one on their roster in Dieng and will probably get a second one with Eubanks by the end of the off-season. The most important thing is that White and Simmons are signed for four more years. You don't need to have the perfect center in year one. You can draft, develop, sign or otherwise trade for one going forward. For all we know, the Spurs draft Kai Jones and then have their perfect guy developed enough in a year. Turner is far from the only candidate.

[John B]

I agree. DJ having the comparable stats is because Simmons gets to watch Embiid half of the time. If Simmons is the focal point of offense, he will be a much better player than DJ because of his ability to score big in the paint and drawing the defense to him, while DJ stops to shoot or pass and still working on finishing strong in the rims.

I think Mills would earn his retirement contract mentoring Simmons. Heck, let’s bring Baynes too while we’re at it

[rankingtear]

Stretch-five isn't that rare of a position anymore. As I mentioned, the Spurs already have one on their roster in Dieng and will probably get a second one with Eubanks by the end of the off-season. The most important thing is that White and Simmons are signed for four more years. You don't need to have the perfect center in year one. You can draft, develop, sign or otherwise trade for one going forward. For all we know, the Spurs draft Kai Jones and then have their perfect guy developed enough in a year. Turner is far from the only candidate.

Last one to come from the draft was 2015 and he shots 33% from three. Teams barely guard 33% 3pt shooting centers.

[The Truth #6]

The short answer why it won’t work with Simmons in San Antonio is that he doesn’t want to play the four as everyone is suggesting. Coach Brown already tried that and it flew like a lead balloon. It’s not like Philly didn’t try different things with him. Simmons would necessitate larger changes to work around him is my first thought.

[John B]

The short answer why it won’t work with Simmons in San Antonio is that he doesn’t want to play the four as everyone is suggesting. Coach Brown already tried that and it flew like a lead balloon. It’s not like Philly didn’t try different things with him. Simmons would necessitate larger changes to work around him is my first thought.

I think Chinook addressed that. Simmons will play PG and can switch with White or Vassell in the defensive end. With his skills, Simmons needs to play PG and take his man to the hole.

[Chinook]

Last one to come from the draft was 2015 and he shots 33% from three. Teams barely guard 33% 3pt shooting centers.

That doesn't change that they're all over the place in the league right now. It's harder to find teams without one than with at this point. I don't think the college game is good for shooting centers yet, and a lot of future centers still play the four down there.

[objective]

I don't see what's SO captivating about Simmons.

The roster around him in Philly was just about a much better version of the Spurs roster and Simmons was a head case disaster.

Embiid was a monster version of poeltl
Harris was a better mature bigger version of keldon
Curry was a much better shooter and playmaker than Lonnie
Thybulle was a better defending though worse sitting Vassell

If Simmons couldn't get it done with them, would he do it in San Antonio? And the Spurs probably wouldn't be bad enough to get high picks, if they even had any picks left after trading for Simmons. And no capspace to get anything big either.

On top of that, I don't find Simmons enjoyable to watch. If the Spurs aren't going to be contenders, they could at least be fun to watch, and I don't have fun when players pass up open shots and are afraid to get fouled.

[tbdog]

Chinook, who's your top target to fill the 4 if Simmons aren't it?

[Chinook]

The issue wouldn't be cap space. It's not hard to find a trade that let's the Spurs use all of their space first before getting the Simmons deal done. The issue is the bad market. The only player worth spending a ton of money on is Collins, and he and Simmons don't fit together at all. I wouldn't trade take negative or neutral players into cap space if the goal were to build around Simmons.

[mo7888]

The issue wouldn't be cap space. It's not hard to find a trade that let's the Spurs use all of their space first before getting the Simmons deal done. The issue is the bad market. The only player worth spending a ton of money on is Collins, and he and Simmons don't fit together at all. I wouldn't trade take negative or neutral players into cap space if the goal were to build around Simmons.

I would think a player like Gary Trent Jr could be a target if we were trading for Simmons..

[Chinook]

Chinook, who's your top target to fill the 4 if Simmons aren't it?

Collins is the top target in my book. Then it's probably Simmons and Harris from Philly. I'd be willing to eat Tobais' deal but not add value to it. I'd be watching Portland carefully to see if they blow it up, because Covington would be interesting if the Spurs are going to keep White and Murray. There are rumors that Siakam can be had, and if GS doesn't get him, SA could probably make a compelling offer that doesn't sacrifice too much. I'm not against Porter or Portis. As I've said before, I'm not even against getting Kuzma back in a DeRozan trade. There are even guys in the draft I think could do it.

I like Simmons quite a bit and think the playoff loss is weighing too much on other people's opinions, but I wouldn't be held hostage by Philly in a trade. The Spurs aren't a Simmons away from contending, even as a dark horse.

[rankingtear]

That doesn't change that they're all over the place in the league right now. It's harder to find teams without one than with at this point. I don't think the college game is good for shooting centers yet, and a lot of future centers still play the four down there.

Nobody is really shooting 3 at a good clip while providing good defense to matter. Porzingis in 2019-20 was the only one to provide the theoretical impact of a stretch 5 and that is over now with all the injuries. Your lineups most crucial piece is developing or drafting a unicorn.

[The Truth #6]

I think Chinook addressed that. Simmons will play PG and can switch with White or Vassell in the defensive end. With his skills, Simmons needs to play PG and take his man to the hole.

Ahh, didn’t see that. My bad. That does work better then, theoretically. So yes, if we could trade DDR and DJM for Simmons then I’m more intrigued. Not sure if Philly wants two non outside shooters, though.

[Teamduncan21]

Collins is the top target in my book. Then it's probably Simmons and Harris from Philly. I'd be willing to eat Tobais' deal but not add value to it. I'd be watching Portland carefully to see if they blow it up, because Covington would be interesting if the Spurs are going to keep White and Murray. There are rumors that Siakam can be had, and if GS doesn't get him, SA could probably make a compelling offer that doesn't sacrifice too much. I'm not against Porter or Portis. As I've said before, I'm not even against getting Kuzma back in a DeRozan trade. There are even guys in the draft I think could do it.

I like Simmons quite a bit and think the playoff loss is weighing too much on other people's opinions, but I wouldn't be held hostage by Philly in a trade. The Spurs aren't a Simmons away from contending, even as a dark horse.

The last line... Someone mentioned at peak we will end up like 6ers. We are barely winning. If we can be like sixers today in 3-4 years that's a win already.

Simmons has his weak point. But as whole, we are a non playoff team with no star player, mid level picks, and not attractive free agent destination.

To get a star player. We need to tank to draft. This is another way. Get a young player who can at least make us compe ive. I'm not big fan by any means. But we need to have a direction or center piece.

And the reason I'm not that of a big fan is Simmons is really just slightly better than dejounte Murray. He is more hyped. But he is not crazily better than dejounte. But at least dejounte can shoot.

Would hope for someone else. But I am not opposed to Simmons. Kinda lukewarm I guess

[mo7888]

Collins is the top target in my book. Then it's probably Simmons and Harris from Philly. I'd be willing to eat Tobais' deal but not add value to it. I'd be watching Portland carefully to see if they blow it up, because Covington would be interesting if the Spurs are going to keep White and Murray. There are rumors that Siakam can be had, and if GS doesn't get him, SA could probably make a compelling offer that doesn't sacrifice too much. I'm not against Porter or Portis. As I've said before, I'm not even against getting Kuzma back in a DeRozan trade. There are even guys in the draft I think could do it.

I like Simmons quite a bit and think the playoff loss is weighing too much on other people's opinions, but I wouldn't be held hostage by Philly in a trade. The Spurs aren't a Simmons away from contending, even as a dark horse.

I think what you lay our here is part of the mentality that's got everyone here so polarized (one way or the other on Simmons). We are so used to the Spurs having limited flexibility that we get caught up fixating on one particular path. We are not used to literally having every path open to us and it's more than some can process. If you make an argument in favor of Simmons then, to some here, you're arguing against other paths, and that's just not the case. There's a difference between evaluating what one path 'could' look like and promoting that particular path. Personally, evaluating those different paths makes things more interesting right now than usual.