Aleksej Pokusevski - 2020 NBA Draft Prospect

[DAF86]

Watching this full game now

If you want an example of how laughably bad this league is, check out the play at 26:24 (doesn't involve Poku)

And another dumbass play at 34:37

Honestly, these games feel like high school games than they are professional games

That's the league where the soon to be B2B MVP averaged 9 points per game, tbh. It was probably even tier back then.

Edit: actually, I got it wrong. I thought you had posted a video of the division 2 Greek league. Giannis actually averaged 8 ppg on the underage Eurobasket he played.

[Chinook]

Arguable, tbh. Pokusevski at least played vs grown ass men in his league. NCAA is very overrated by US NBA fans, that's why a prodigy like Luka, that dominated the second highest level of basketball as a teenager, wasn't the the consensous number pick two years ago. He should have been almost as clear as Lebron as number one pick, tbh.

It's not that people think the compe ion is that great (though the tournament-caliber teams are definitely better than U-18 Euro teams). It's that being in college exposes players to more NBA caliber talent. Maybe Poke would look good had he gone to school. Maybe he wouldn't. But he's much closer to the other Luka than he is to Doncic when it comes to overseas history.

Why would professional teams, with professional grown ass men, which salaries depend on the amount of winning they do in a season, would be more willing to favour the development of a young kid over the success of the entire team, than a college team, which its mean focus should be exactly that: the development of young players?

I get that you might not understand how college sports in the US works, but they are businesses that rely on unpaid labor. Their goal is to make money, not to teach kids to play. Coaches get paid ungodly amounts of money to get to the tournament and recruit the best talent. With the way so many guys are one-and-done, there is very little development going for many players.

B-teams are literally there to feed players into the big club. The system over there is basically like the MLB minor-league system. Guys sign on from their teams and can move up in the organization as they grow older. There's definitely a greater focus on developing guys there than even the NBA d-league, since the latter doesn't have a way to secure players' rights long enough to put in years and years of development. It's a pretty big hole that might just be starting to get filled in.

Unverifiable. You are underestimating the savy and experience of a veteran team playing against a bunch of young kids. Most NCAA teams are composed, on their majority, by kids that will never see a day on an NBA court, tbh.

I think you're more underestimating what a league full of guys who're on the margins of the league really means. A lot of the players are in the top 700 to 1000 in the world, not Euro B-teams aren't more talented. They might win based on chemistry, but it's a mistake to think that Poke is playing against even decent Greek compe ion.

[Atl Spur]

Give me Precious........

[DAF86]

It's not that people think the compe ion is that great (though the tournament-caliber teams are definitely better than U-18 Euro teams). It's that being in college exposes players to more NBA caliber talent. Maybe Poke would look good had he gone to school. Maybe he wouldn't. But he's much closer to the other Luka than he is to Doncic when it comes to overseas history.



I get that you might not understand how college sports in the US works, but they are businesses that rely on unpaid labor. Their goal is to make money, not to teach kids to play. Coaches get paid ungodly amounts of money to get to the tournament and recruit the best talent. With the way so many guys are one-and-done, there is very little development going for many players.

B-teams are literally there to feed players into the big club. The system over there is basically like the MLB minor-league system. Guys sign on from their teams and can move up in the organization as they grow older. There's definitely a greater focus on developing guys there than even the NBA d-league, since the latter doesn't have a way to secure players' rights long enough to put in years and years of development. It's a pretty big hole that might just be starting to get filled in.



I think you're more underestimating what a league full of guys who're on the margins of the league really means. A lot of the players are in the top 700 to 1000 in the world, not Euro B-teams aren't more talented. They might win based on chemistry, but it's a mistake to think that Poke is playing against even decent Greek compe ion.

I didn't understand what you meant. Are you saying NCAA has "a lot of" the top 700/1000 players in the World?

[Dejounte]

I just realized something...

These U18 games are as useless as dirt to evaluate players. It's like watching high school tape of US players. No one does that.

It's the A2 videos that should be paid attention to. It's the one I posted earlier with the time stamps where Poku played poorly. Poku played in 11 of those games. Having a hard time finding the other 10. These are the games with any credibility, not the U18 games.

[DAF86]

I just realized something...

These U18 games are as useless as dirt to evaluate players. It's like watching high school tape of US players. No one does that.

It's the A2 videos that should be paid attention to. It's the one I posted earlier with the time stamps where Poku played poorly. Poku played in 11 of those games. Having a hard time finding the other 10. These are the games with any credibility, not the U18 games.

Poku posted better stats on the Greek second division than on the U-18 tournament.

[Dejounte]

Poku posted better stats on the Greek second division than on the U-18 tournament.

I am aware of this, that's why I'm trying to find the games to watch. Stats arent everything. The video I posted he had a stat line of 9 pts, 12 rebounds, 3 assists, and 2 blocks, which looks decent but it wasnt even close in actuality. I look at the other game logs, and it's not better by much more. With how trigger happy he is with his 3 point shooting, it doesnt surprise me that he scored more than 9 pts in other games (highest point total was 17).

[Degoat]

I’d puke if we drafted this guy lol we already have Luka to develope

[DAF86]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of compe ion as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league.

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of compe ion have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of compe ion was.

[Dejounte]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of compe ion as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league.

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of compe ion have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of compe ion was.

The reigning MVP played in the A2 games. A2 games are more useful and more trusted for people who are interested in his style of play. I'm not trying to fight you. That's just the truth. Why watch college games for any player to begin with? U18 games are pointless to watch just as no one would watch high school games on US players. You preach about people should watch full games, yet you're here trying to deflect. Very odd...

It seems when you get really attached to a player, you find it hard to accept any criticism about that player. It's like a pattern with you.

[DAF86]

The reigning MVP played in the A2 games. A2 games are more useful and more trusted for people who are interested in his style of play. I'm not trying to fight you. That's just the truth. Why watch college games for any player to begin with? U18 games are pointless to watch just as no one would watch high school games on US players. You preach about people should watch full games, yet you're here trying to deflect. Very odd...

My point wasn't directed at you, but at Chinook, tbh.

And why do folks would rather watch college games than high school ones? Because college games are newer and show with more precision the level of development a player is currently at. A2 or U-18 makes little difference, tbh, the newer footage will always be more telling. However, if you can watch both, all the better.

[R. DeMurre]

It's interesting how many European sites refer to Poku as a shooting guard, not as a forward:

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...in-euroleague/
https://www.olympiacosbc.gr/en/games...sevksi-en.html
https://www.proballers.com/basketbal...sej-pokusevski

[Chinook]

I didn't understand what you meant. Are you saying NCAA has "a lot of" the top 700/1000 players in the World?

You said it was unverifiable that the Olympiacos b-team is worse than d-league teams. The d-league is full of fringe NBA players. Not every d-league player is at that fringe level, and a lot of fringe players are overseas, but it's still an extremely talented league. It's certainly the second-best league in the Americas.

[Chinook]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of compe ion as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league.

Giannis is such a lazy comparison. He, like Kawhi, had an unpredictable development curve. You can't project anyone to improve like they did. If people were saying, "Poke is going to suck; otherwise, he'd've played for a better league" then talking about Giannis makes sense. But a lot of players develop in that league and don't go on to succeed, so using Giannis as an example is problematic at best and straight deceitful at worse.

You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays.

The relationship between skill-set and compe ion level is a real thing that you seem to be ignoring, likely because you don't realize how skilled NBA players are beyond the roles they play on their teams. Anthony Davis was a really skilled player with a guard's floor game, but you barely see him do anything outside typical big-man things because NBA guards can do guard things better than NBA bigs can, and vice versa. So Davis totally panned out, but if you were trying to look at those PG skills and projecting him on those ("Man if that can translate to the NBA"), then you'd've been wrong. Panning out of busting isn't a matter of being the same in the NBA as in lower levels. It's possible that almost none of the things people are gushing over will be good enough, but he'll be able to shoot and protect the rim enough to be a good player. Success, but not at all from the "skills he displays" against lower compe ion.

And of course scouts watch high-school tape. The are you guys talking about? You think with all the one-and-dones that scouts are just basing their opinions on one year? Do you think teams are watching just the three games Wiseman played?

[duncan2150]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of compe ion as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league.

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of compe ion have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of compe ion was.

As I live in Europe and I watch a little Bit of basket-ball here, I can tell you that Greek d2 is a very low level.
Again nothing against poku but it's not the same when you have young guys playing in good compe ion while having good stats like killyan Hayes, porzingis, Tony parker at the time.
It's pretty significant to have some good games at high level.

[Chinook]

Also, because I keep having to say this: Prospects aren't dice. They don't develop based on random chance. The developmental staff has to think in terms of the skills they believe WILL translate. They aren't going around thinking, "There's a 20-percent chance this translates, and that's worth the risk." They think, "Well he's not going to be a point-forward in the league, but he has a nice touch of his shot, so he should be able to space the floor and attack close-outs." If we're talking about second-rounders or trading for a guy as a flier, then you'll see a lot of "swings for the fences", especially for guys who will stay in Europe. But first-rounders tend to have very specific developmental plans, and those plans are not based off the "skills he displays" but on the role the staff projects for the player.

Murray is what happens when you try to develop a guy into a star without worrying about having a translatable foundation first.

[BackHome]

I don’t know how they drafted Murray thinking he could be a PG when his handles and court vision are so bad?

[Dejounte]

Chinook

The thing about Wiseman doesn't deserve an answer because the answer is obvious (same for before the straight-to-NBA rule was placed)

And what the are you going to learn from high school games where players are averaging 50 points? Where the next tallest player is 6'0?

Sure, scouts may look at it briefly and get an understanding how their skills evolved over time, but as far as useful intel?

[Chinook]

Chinook

The thing about Wiseman doesn't deserve an answer because the answer is obvious (same for before the straight-to-NBA rule was placed)

And what the are you going to learn from high school games where players are averaging 50 points? Where the next tallest player is 6'0?

Sure, scouts may look at it briefly and get an understanding how their skills evolved over time, but as far as useful intel?

I can almost guarantee you the Spurs looked more at Keldon's high-school tape than his college tape. They said as much for Murray. The NCAA is a different animal than high school, and players are asked to do different things. Johnson, like Patrick Williams, was a role-player in college because of the bigger names on his team. That wasn't the case in high school, where he was a highly regarded recruit. If they are seriously looking at Williams, they'll be looking at his high-school tape as well. You want to see what players can do in a lot of different situations to get a feel for their ceiling. It's not just about what the do at one compe ion level. In that regard, I do agree with DAFfy. I'm sure I'm going to be qualifying that in further back-and-forths with him, so I'll leave that point where it is. But yeah, it's just about looking at the development of skills. , players can have bad seasons after they transition to the NCAA. These are kids we're talking about, some of whom are thousands of miles from home and surrounded by people they don't know. It's a completely different situation. And it's not like it's necessarily more pro-like, given the scheduling, campus life and the lack of financial compensation.

[exstatic]

I can almost guarantee you the Spurs looked more at Keldon's high-school tape than his college tape. They said as much for Murray. The NCAA is a different animal than high school, and players are asked to do different things. Johnson, like Patrick Williams, was a role-player in college because of the bigger names on his team. That wasn't the case in high school, where he was a highly regarded recruit. If they are seriously looking at Williams, they'll be looking at his high-school tape as well. You want to see what players can do in a lot of different situations to get a feel for their ceiling. It's not just about what the do at one compe ion level. In that regard, I do agree with DAFfy. I'm sure I'm going to be qualifying that in further back-and-forths with him, so I'll leave that point where it is. But yeah, it's just about looking at the development of skills. , players can have bad seasons after they transition to the NCAA. These are kids we're talking about, some of whom are thousands of miles from home and surrounded by people they don't know. It's a completely different situation. And it's not like it's necessarily more pro-like, given the scheduling, campus life and the lack of financial compensation.

High school? What a terrible level of compe ion! You can’t possibly learn anything from that...

[Dejounte]

Lmfao look, I may have exaggerated saying you can't learn anything at all. And I clarify that by saying you get an idea what their foundation of skills are which they have grown or not grown from. My problem is taking domination in that level with anything more than a grain of salt. If you want to put that much stock into that, you do you. Scoring 60 points in very unorganized basketball or blocking 5' tall kids and saying wow, he really played awesome defense is a joke to me.

[Chinook]

High school? What a terrible level of compe ion! You can’t possibly learn anything from that...

Yeah, it's almost as if I'm giving a nuanced opinion on how players are evaluated and not simply taking an extreme position on the matter. Who'da thunk something like that was possible?

[BackHome]

Yeah like no one gets drafted out of High School they must go to College so we can get a true understanding of how good they can be playing in a high level of basketball program.

Oh Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, I guess didn’t need to play against grown men in order to be drafted in the NBA right out of High School.

[Chinook]

Lmfao look, I may have exaggerated saying you can't learn anything at all. And I clarify that by saying you get an idea what their foundation of skills are which they have grown or not grown from. My problem is taking domination in that level with anything more than a grain of salt. If you want to put that much stock into that, you do you. Scoring 60 points in very unorganized basketball or blocking 5' tall kids and saying wow, he really played awesome defense is a joke to me.

AAU exists. Like it has a million problems with how it develops guys and exploits their talents, but it exists. High school players aren't necessarily playing against massively inferior compe ion all the time. That doesn't even get into that there are definitely good high school leagues that have people moving from other parts of the country/world to join.

This also isn't really a "me doing me" thing. The Spurs are on record of saying they pretty much disregarded Murray's year at UW. Perhaps that was to their peril, but it's an example that high-school tape isn't just an afterthought for one-and-done players.

[Dejounte]

Again,

My problem is saying

"Look guys, watch this video and see how much he dominated this game. Very easy to see how high his ceiling in this game"

Rather

"Look guys, Jaron likes to shoot at mid-range. Theres some passing skill there. He plays with a high motor"

I watched Jaron in the g-league. Most of the stuff he does in this high school video, he barely did against g league compe ion. But i respect that he had those skills deep underneath, i just wont say it translates or has a high chance of translating to higher levels of compe ion.