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  1. #1
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Obviously, gun control is subject to a lot of debate and will be in the coming months.

    One of the big challenges in this debate is overcoming the meme that the idea of "control" is another way of saying "ban". This false equivalence gets the discussion off it's rails and prevents any meaningful progress. Similarly, calls to ban guns (by those who actually want to ban them) are counter-productive and prevent any meaningful progress.

    As with most topics, everyone is quick to become a cons utional scholar when national events occur, but an overlooked aspect to the 2nd Amendment (and furthermore any part of the bill of rights) is that no part of the cons ution gives the citizenry the unfettered and unrestricted right to anything. Rights are granted with the understanding the Government reserves the right to regulate where there exists a reasonable societal interest. A perfect example is how yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected by a person's First Amendment rights. The Supreme Court is clear when it comes to guns, the people do have a right to bear arms, but at the same time the government does have the authority to regulate.

    The all-or-nothing rhetoric ("Ban all guns!" / "Arm everyone") does nothing to serve the purpose of real reform. It is in the best interest of the government to gain better control of who has access to firearms. Yes, it is easier said than done. And yes, it will be a multi-generation process. But as it stands today, we have more controls on who can drive a car and who can vote than who can get a firearm. That's a signal that something is wrong here.

    A great example of effective gun control has been the Concealed Handgun License. To receive it you must take a class, pass a test and have a license in good standing (much like a license to drive). Without arguing the merits of how well classes are taught, this is a good first step in getting better control over who is authorized to carry a weapon. Those caught in the unlicensed possession of a firearm should face strict penalties.

    Will this stop illegal firearm possession and use overnight? No, but it a good first step.

    Another good step is FOR EVERYONE to start treating guns are serious things that need to be explained to every American child so they grow up with the proper respect for the damage a gun can inflict.

    Yesterday's piece by Dr. Aaron E. Carroll show gives an example of how we've let the industry put sales over safety, and it is not acceptable.

    One of the things I do as a pediatrician is "anticipatory guidance." We ask questions about issues that have not yet occurred but might occur in the future. A lot of anticipatory guidance focuses on injury prevention. We might ask about bike helmets, or swimming, or fire alarms in the house. I even ask about guns in the home.

    I don't ask this question because I'm eager to lecture patients or parents on the morality of owning guns, or the rights of individuals under the Second Amendment. I'm asking because I'm trying to prevent injury or death. The No. 3 killer of children age 10-14 is suicide; the fourth is homicide. The No. 2 killer of children age 15-19 is homicide; No. 3 is suicide.

    I have been trained to ask parents if they have a gun in the home. If they do, I ask how it's stored. I strongly recommend that they keep it unloaded, locked up, and that they store the bullets separately. I do this because guns are part of almost 85% of homicides and more than 45% of suicides in kids 5 to 19 years old. This doesn't even account for injuries not resulting in death.

    Yet recent laws have attempted to stop pediatricians from doing even this.
    The rest of his editorial, found here, is definitely worth the read. Carroll makes the point that crafting legislation around unspeakable tragedies like these miss a bigger point - there are other tragedies happening every day that we can prevent, and those are what we should craft legislation towards.

    While what happened in Newtown is a horrific occurrence, it represents the exception, not the norm, with respect to gun violence in the United States. While I welcome the opportunity for us to address the problem, I hope we focus on how we might best help all our children, not just those who make the national news.
    It's time we invest in mental health care in America.

    It's also time we regulate guns the same we we've chosen to regulate driving, AT A BARE MINIMUM. The CHL has proven an effective model, and can be enhanced to identify people who absolutely should NOT have a gun.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    nvm. I'm an idiot

  3. #3
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    I completely understand the role of regulating a cons utional right. I also think it's tougher to do in an environment that is apparently corrosive to the 4th amendment. The 2nd and 4th play off against each other. As one is weakened the other should be bolstered.
    That being said, I don't think that line of thinking necessarily precludes a CHL approach to gun ownership. But the health of the 4th amendment makes it a much tougher sell than it should be.

  4. #4
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    It's never going to happen where farmers and old coots go get fingerprinted and attend gun law classes and proficiency training in order to have the guns their grandfather passed down to them. For many, guns are all black, evil things. For many others they are as much a part of their lives as a fishing rod.

    If you don't want to own or carry a gun, don't. Everyone is so ready to give up rights they don't use.

    The call for "everyone to start" doing anything is fruitless. That's not a legitimate step as it cannot simply be applied. You might as well say "the next step is for people to stop shooting each other".

  5. #5
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    b/g checks: no arrest record in past 5 years, no domestic abuse or other violence complaints in 10 years, not taking any psychoactive or sleeping pills.

    Any violations of the background checks by gun owners will cause confiscation of all guns and ammo.

    50% sales tax on all guns and ammo.

    All guns must have s/n. Any owner, gun holder whose gun has no s/n is fined $10K and the gun confiscated.

    All guns must have le of ownership and certified bill of sale which must be transferred when gun is sold.

    All guns sold must be registered to a named owner.

    The le/owner database will be national.

    An annual ownership registration renewal fee must be paid, 10% of the "blue book" price.

    All guns purchasers must first take and pass a gun owership/operation course before the gun is delivered.

  6. #6
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    b/g checks: no arrest record in past 5 years, no domestic abuse or other violence complaints in 10 years, not taking any psychoactive or sleeping pills.

    Any violations of the background checks by gun owners will cause confiscation of all guns and ammo.

    50% sales tax on all guns and ammo.

    All guns must have s/n. Any owner, gun holder whose gun has no s/n is fined $10K and the gun confiscated.

    All guns must have le of ownership and certified bill of sale which must be transferred when gun is sold.

    All guns sold must be registered to a named owner.

    The le/owner database will be national.

    An annual ownership registration renewal fee must be paid, 10% of the "blue book" price.

    All guns purchasers must first take and pass a gun owership/operation course before the gun is delivered.
    10% every year?

    Do you pay 1000 bucks every year to register your car?

  7. #7
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    God boutons is ing re ed. smh

  8. #8
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    10% every year?

    Do you pay 1000 bucks every year to register your car?
    Bexar county registration was $70 for me a few weeks ago.

    Speaking of cars, Federal law, not state, should lower the driver's alcohol max level to 0.05, not the alcohol-industry-friendly 0.08.

  9. #9
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Bexar county registration was $70 for me a few weeks ago.

    Speaking of cars, Federal law, not state, should lower the driver's alcohol max level to 0.05, not the alcohol-industry-friendly 0.08.
    Ok, well I am assuming that the blue book for your car isn't $700... Do you see the disparity here?

  10. #10
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Ok, well I am assuming that the blue book for your car isn't $700... Do you see the disparity here?
    lol

  11. #11
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    BTW, I like the CHL idea. The main resistance will be from those who think that their AR-15 is going to stop an M1 Abrams or an MQ-1 Predator and that the CHL courses and registration are just the government's way of getting a list together of who to take out first.

  12. #12
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    Ok, well I am assuming that the blue book for your car isn't $700... Do you see the disparity here?
    taxes on cars are usage taxes

    my proposed regulations and red-tape nightmare and penalties for gun ownership are to dissuade (not ban) gun ownership, which should not be any easier to obtain than an abortion in a Repug/Confederate state.

  13. #13
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    taxes on cars are usage taxes

    my proposed regulations and red-tape nightmare and penalties for gun ownership are to dissuade (not ban) gun ownership, which should not be any easier to obtain than an abortion in a Repug/Confederate state.

    Oh ok, so instead of making progress, you want to stand on your soapbox and cry. I see.

    Ugh, I feel like Bizzaro Icarus. TeyshaBlue how long before this wears off?

  14. #14
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    BTW, I like the CHL idea. The main resistance will be from those who think that their AR-15 is going to stop an M1 Abrams or an MQ-1 Predator and that the CHL courses and registration are just the government's way of getting a list together of who to take out first.
    I hate this line of thought that disregards the whole purpose of the second amendment. The US military can easily lose guerrila wars. I mean, see Vietnam or our occupation of Afghanistan.

  15. #15
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Oh ok, so instead of making progress, you want to stand on your soapbox and cry. I see.

    Ugh, I feel like Bizzaro Icarus. TeyshaBlue how long before this wears off?
    The only cure I know of is more cowbell.

  16. #16
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I hate this line of thought that disregards the whole purpose of the second amendment. The US military can easily lose guerrila wars. I mean, see Vietnam or our occupation of Afghanistan.
    Oh yeah, you are talking about unpopular occupations of NOT OUR HOMELAND 12,000 miles away. Exact same thing.

  17. #17
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    Oh ok, so instead of making progress, you want to stand on your soapbox and cry. I see.
    soapbox cry? no, just proposing to make gun ownership onerous AND expensive.

  18. #18
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    just proposing some regulations for a "well regulated" guns-and-ammo industry, in contrast with the 40% of all guns sales with no b/g check.

  19. #19
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    7 States Where Gun Sales Are Surging Since the Sandy Hook School Shooting

    1. Connecticut.
    2. Viriginia
    3. Florida.
    4. Texas.
    5. Colorado. I
    6. California.
    7. Louisiana

    http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-an...tter763880&t=7

  20. #20
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, you are talking about unpopular occupations of NOT OUR HOMELAND 12,000 miles away. Exact same thing.
    It is pretty similar, unless you're arguing that our military would carpet-bomb our cities.

  21. #21
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    It is pretty similar, unless you're arguing that our military would carpet-bomb our cities.
    So in this scenario, the government is so evil that it must be overthrown, but isn't evil enough to put down the resistance?

  22. #22
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    So in this scenario, the government is so evil that it must be overthrown, but isn't evil enough to put down the resistance?
    The senators can't fly the planes.

  23. #23
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    The senators can't fly the planes.
    Ok, so the citizenry doesn't need guns because the military is on their side.

  24. #24
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    I hate this line of thought that disregards the whole purpose of the second amendment. The US military can easily lose guerrila wars. I mean, see Vietnam or our occupation of Afghanistan.
    We need not restrict the idea to concealed handguns, but the way we regulate concealed handguns is much better than the way we currently regulate assault rifles. It should be harder for someone to get an AR-15 than a pistol, not easier.

  25. #25
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    We need not restrict the idea to concealed handguns, but the way we regulate concealed handguns is much better than the way we currently regulate assault rifles. It should be harder for someone to get an AR-15 than a pistol, not easier.
    We will never agree. People kill people. The gun is just a tool for doing that. How about stiffer deterrents against the people committing the crimes?

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