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  1. #76
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    Can Wiseman still be salvaged though? He’s only 21. He just got summoned back from the G-League after averaging 15 and 10 there.
    I think there are two things going on:
    1. Wiseman has been awful and his value is dimmed;
    2. Wiseman's raw talent is still hard to categorically ignore.

    Spurs driving a hard bargain on picks (they should), but at some level secretly interested in seeing if they can rehab him.

  2. #77
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    How does that work? At the time of the bubble GS didn't even know their draft position, there was no way to know they could even have the opportunity to draft Wiseman.

    LMA missed the bubble because he was injured and because he has a known heart issue, so covid was a big concern.
    It wasn’t their pick, it was Minny’s from the trade for Wiggins. Heart condition? Why did he start playing in December under non bubble conditions, and no vaccine available for months? I think NBA players started getting it in March 2021, on the down low. LMA was gone by March. If he was really injured, he surely would have recovered between February 2020 and August 2020 for something that didn’t require surgery.

  3. #78
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Great observations... but what stands out to me is that you can get by with journeyman center if you have Steph Curry or Michael Jordan on your team...

    I'd even extend your observation to include:

    • The 2005 Spurs had Rasho at 25.5 mpg and Nazr Mohammed at 18.0 mpg (and I believe Nazr was starting for us in the finals IIRC)
    • The 2007 Spurs had Francisco Elson (who I don't even slightly remember) at 19.0 mpg and Fabs at 17.3 mpg
    • The 2014 Spurs had Tiago at 21.5 mpg, Jeff Ayres at 13.0 mpg and Baynes at 9.3 mpg


    The 2014 Spurs are the only one among those teams that stand out as not having a prime superstar, but we all already know how special that team was in terms of the beautiful game.

    Another way to think of it could be this: the last eight NBA champions plus the two Miami teams that won it with LeBron were not Center oriented. The Lakers had AD in 2020, who could slide over to C, so maybe they don't quite count, but the Bucks, Raptors, Cavs, and Warrior teams were all constructed with primary strengths other than a powerhouse traditional center. Before that, Dirk won with a good defensive center in Tyson Chandler, the Kobe-led Lakers won two with PF Pau, where Bynum was a lesser piece, and Boston won with PF KG as the important big while Perkins held down the C position. It's been quite a while since a team whose best player was their center won a championship. Even in 2014, Duncan was the spiritual leader but Kawhi had the best advanced stats by far and was the key to slowing down Lebron.

  4. #79
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    It wasn’t their pick, it was Minny’s from the trade for Wiggins. Heart condition? Why did he start playing in December under non bubble conditions, and no vaccine available for months? I think NBA players started getting it in March 2021, on the down low. LMA was gone by March. If he was really injured, he surely would have recovered between February 2020 and August 2020 for something that didn’t require surgery.
    No it wasn’t Minny’s pick, they drafted Ant with the first pick in the same draft. Regardless the draft order was nowhere near complete at the time of the bubble so no one knew who might have been available to them, let alone discuss trading them.

    LMA has a Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome and had missed games due to irregular heartbeat earlier in the same season(or the previous one) so it’s plausible they wouldn’t have wanted to risk his health. Besides he had a shoulder(I think) injury. It’s way more probable they held him out of the bubble due to these reasons than because of a conspiracy trade that no one could have known the very basics of at the time.

  5. #80
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    I think GS brought Wiseman back from the G League to get some exposure for a trade. With all the rumors about his lack of interest or bad at ude about his own development they needed something to get some positives if they are giving up on him. I don't think the FO will be interested if he isn't a hgih character player.

  6. #81
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    I think GS brought Wiseman back from the G League to get some exposure for a trade. With all the rumors about his lack of interest or bad at ude about his own development they needed something to get some positives if they are giving up on him. I don't think the FO will be interested if he isn't a hgih character player.
    I think this is correct....they are going to showcase him in certain situations..

  7. #82
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    Great observations... but what stands out to me is that you can get by with journeyman center if you have Steph Curry or Michael Jordan on your team...

    I'd even extend your observation to include:

    • The 2005 Spurs had Rasho at 25.5 mpg and Nazr Mohammed at 18.0 mpg (and I believe Nazr was starting for us in the finals IIRC)
    • The 2007 Spurs had Francisco Elson (who I don't even slightly remember) at 19.0 mpg and Fabs at 17.3 mpg
    • The 2014 Spurs had Tiago at 21.5 mpg, Jeff Ayres at 13.0 mpg and Baynes at 9.3 mpg


    The 2014 Spurs are the only one among those teams that stand out as not having a prime superstar, but we all already know how special that team was in terms of the beautiful game.
    The same Curry who's avoided/beat nothing but injured teams in the playoffs while begging the second best player of his generation to join his team because he was too much of a coward to compete?

    The Spurs had a center in those years by the name of Duncan. He just so happened to prefer starting next to another center, so that's what they did.


    Another way to think of it could be this: the last eight NBA champions plus the two Miami teams that won it with LeBron were not Center oriented. The Lakers had AD in 2020, who could slide over to C, so maybe they don't quite count, but the Bucks, Raptors, Cavs, and Warrior teams were all constructed with primary strengths other than a powerhouse traditional center. Before that, Dirk won with a good defensive center in Tyson Chandler, the Kobe-led Lakers won two with PF Pau, where Bynum was a lesser piece, and Boston won with PF KG as the important big while Perkins held down the C position. It's been quite a while since a team whose best player was their center won a championship. Even in 2014, Duncan was the spiritual leader but Kawhi had the best advanced stats by far and was the key to slowing down Lebron.
    It's all cir stantial.

    With apologies to '10 Gasol, who was better than Bryant but not the go-to guy, the only centers in that time capable of being the best player on a championship team have been Davis since about '15, Jokic since about '19 and Embiid since about '20.

    In that time, only once did one have a legitimate chance to win a championship ('20 Davis) and he did while being the best player in the playoffs.

    I love how when the catch all metrics paint a picture of some rim running vertical spacing center being high impact it's generally diminished, but when it's '14 S bag somehow they're the gospel. Never seen a 3 and D type (18.3% usage rate and 10.4% assist rate) so glorified.

    Not sure how averaging 28.2 ppg on 67.9% true shooting was "slowing" James down.

  8. #83
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Another way to think of it could be this: the last eight NBA champions plus the two Miami teams that won it with LeBron were not Center oriented. The Lakers had AD in 2020, who could slide over to C, so maybe they don't quite count, but the Bucks, Raptors, Cavs, and Warrior teams were all constructed with primary strengths other than a powerhouse traditional center. Before that, Dirk won with a good defensive center in Tyson Chandler, the Kobe-led Lakers won two with PF Pau, where Bynum was a lesser piece, and Boston won with PF KG as the important big while Perkins held down the C position. It's been quite a while since a team whose best player was their center won a championship. Even in 2014, Duncan was the spiritual leader but Kawhi had the best advanced stats by far and was the key to slowing down Lebron.
    I do think this is a great way of looking at it... but I think we can also look at it as teams with Elite Superstars win les.

    Since 2000, I can only count 3 le teams who won without what I would consider a legit SUPERSTAR. Granted, they still had elite all-star players (some of whom were either once Superstars or would become Superstars)

    2004 Pistons
    2008 Celtics
    2014 Spurs

    My only point being... you probably need a superstar to win a chip. He doesn't have to be a C though (and he usually isn't) but I'll take him at any position and if I can get a good C on the roster as well, why not?

  9. #84
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    Can Wiseman still be salvaged though? He’s only 21. He just got summoned back from the G-League after averaging 15 and 10 there.
    Wiseman problem is the way GS wants him to play. Which is just set screens and switch on defense and catch lobs. They just want him to be part of the steph curry show. Put him in a different environment where he is a focal point on offense and his teammates aren't punching each other in the face and he probably flourishes.

    Though our players can't keep their s in their pants so this might not be the best environment for him tbh. If you had to choose between being punched by Draymond and seeing Primo's junk, not sure how you'd call it.

  10. #85
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    Not sure how averaging 28.2 ppg on 67.9% true shooting was "slowing" James down.
    LeBron's #s specifically against Kawhi in that series were more like 9.6pts/7.8rbs/4asts/2stls/3.8tov/0.4blks per game.
    He certainly didn't score 28 ppg on Kawhi.
    Here's a more in depth breakdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...014_finals_an/

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