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  1. #601
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    spurs were willing and sixers weren't. Things changed quickly
    I don't think this is true.

  2. #602
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    Simply disgusting the news and rumors of the day on a message board is no vice

    It's very simple.

    Rumor of deal: reaction: "That sounds bad. I don't like that."

    Opposite reaction: "I hate discussion on discussion boards!"

    It doesn't have to be confirmed or official to talk about things and what the result of possible moves could be.
    *Discussing

  3. #603
    Veteran AFBlue's Avatar
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    Dejounte is going to want a max or near max deal after next season…. $45M/yr or whatever it is these days. Or he could play out the next two seasons and walk. Fans around here always ing that PATFO waits to long and thus gets diminished returns and now.. it looks like they’re entertaining the idea of getting ahead of it this time and people are still ing lol.
    This. Sell high for max value, don't buy the bullsh that's being peddled.

  4. #604
    OH YOU LIKE IT!!! slick'81's Avatar
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    I don't think this is true.
    So spurs never made an offer for Simmons?

  5. #605
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    I understand your view on team building and you've expressed it for several years now and for the most part we've followed it. I'm not saying the team is listening to you per se just that your view has been their view or close to it. I'm not even opposed to it if I could see a way to improve to the point that we are legitimately competing for championships. I'm just not interested in a team who's goal is to be the 5th seed in the west if everything goes our way. I also am factoring in that this is a talented draft at the top that we don't see very often. I realize you don't don't follow draft intel very much and it's not your preferred interest but, this draft has a generational talent at the top and 5 more players rated above Banchero in it. If we don't have a path to add better players to DJ I think the smart move is to trade him away and get as many bites at the apple in this draft as possible and tank. You've never heard me argue for tanking before and its mostly because we haven't seen a draft like this in the years I've been on this board. We can't guarantee that we'll get the 1st pick but we can guarantee that we get a player more talented than the 1st pick in the 2022 draft.

    As for Lavine, I think they wanted to add him to DJ but that it's off the table now and there's no path left to take to find a better player to put alongside DJ...I think that was always their preferred option but they're looking at other options now since Plan A is washing out.
    My point was also that this trade doesn't really enhance the Spurs' lotto odds. They aren't very likely to get a meaningful pick for Murray, especially this early. You're talking about a pick above 10 to meaningfully add ping-pong balls, and the Spurs had to tank at the end to get below 10. A team making a Murray trade wouldn't be doing that. I'm not saying you're a tanking enthusiast, but I also think every upcoming draft is great until April when people realize it's not that special. I think the Spurs will come away with a good player or more, but I also don't think they'll be a horrible team after trading away Murray. If this draft is as well regarded as you say, there will be genuine tankers, and the Spurs, even if they suck -- won't compete on that level.

  6. #606
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    My point was also that this trade doesn't really enhance the Spurs' lotto odds. They aren't very likely to get a meaningful pick for Murray, especially this early. You're talking about a pick above 10 to meaningfully add ping-pong balls, and the Spurs had to tank at the end to get below 10. A team making a Murray trade wouldn't be doing that. I'm not saying you're a tanking enthusiast, but I also think every upcoming draft is great until April when people realize it's not that special. I think the Spurs will come away with a good player or more, but I also don't think they'll be a horrible team after trading away Murray. If this draft is as well regarded as you say, there will be genuine tankers, and the Spurs, even if they suck -- won't compete on that level.
    That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.

  7. #607
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    tbf Murray and the beginning of last season was nowhere where he is now. We knew sixers wouldnt do it and they didn't. Their loss
    Many of us (including me if I can take a moment to self-fellate) valued Murray over Simmons a year ago. It didn’t take some magic crystal ball to see it at the time. A star who needs to be benched in crunch time, isn’t a star at all. DJM had shown a lot of the same flashes with DDR that he did last season.

  8. #608
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    If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip

  9. #609
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    So spurs never made an offer for Simmons?
    There's no evidence the Spurs had any interest in Simmons whatsoever. It was a SpursTalk fantasy.

  10. #610
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    If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip
    I believe Chip is excellent... I believe Ben's shot is beyond Chips ability to fix...

  11. #611
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    There's no evidence the Spurs had any interest in Simmons whatsoever. It was a SpursTalk fantasy.
    I could of sworn spurs offered lonnie,murray and picks. But sixers wanted the moon.

  12. #612
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    Simply disgusting the news and rumors of the day on a message board is no vice

    It's very simple.

    Rumor of deal: reaction: "That sounds bad. I don't like that."

    Opposite reaction: "I hate discussion on discussion boards!"

    It doesn't have to be confirmed or official to talk about things and what the result of possible moves could be.
    That's not the rumored trade. The rumor was that the trade would involve Gallo and picks -- and no, not three picks and not protected picks; that's from a completely unrelated rumor. It's the edging folks who assume that must be the entire trade since it fits their worldview that SA gets destroyed in trades. It also ignores the other rumors we've heard about what the Spurs actually want versus what Atlanta wants to give. The narrative that one builds out of these pieces, and the reasons why one created that narrative are obviously part of normal discourse. Free speech also entails free criticism of bad takes. That's what I'm doing here. People are giving bad takes with bad information, and I'm pointing that out.

    1) No, the Leonard trade wasn't worse then the rumored trade with Toronto

    2) No, recent history doesn't show the Spurs taking bad trades

    3) No, Collins being replaced with Gallo is not a sign the value went down, as the Spurs weren't getting Collins in the previous rumor either.

    Point that out isn't curbing discussion unless the discussion is contingent on parroting falsehoods. I'm constantly critical of the Spurs; being so here is a perfectly fine discussion stance. That's not a shield against misreading tweets though.

  13. #613
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    It’s going to be tough competing with Luka, Zion and Morant and all the young talent in Houston in a few years just in the division. We need all the fire power we need. We might be the most all around young talented team if we get a franchise player this upcoming draft.
    The thing about Houston is they have all of Brooklyn’s picks (swaps) out to 2027 with only minor protections. If Kyrie and Durant leave which looks likely, the Nets might be headed to the bottom of the conference for a few years which makes the Rockets picks even more valuable.

  14. #614
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    That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.
    That should've said..."getting an unprotected pick from a team projected to be in the mid to late lottery"....

    Sorry...didn't edit fast enough..

  15. #615
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    That's not the rumored trade. The rumor was that the trade would involve Gallo and picks -- and no, not three picks and not protected picks; that's from a completely unrelated rumor. It's the edging folks who assume that must be the entire trade since it fits their worldview that SA gets destroyed in trades. It also ignores the other rumors we've heard about what the Spurs actually want versus what Atlanta wants to give. The narrative that one builds out of these pieces, and the reasons why one created that narrative are obviously part of normal discourse. Free speech also entails free criticism of bad takes. That's what I'm doing here. People are giving bad takes with bad information, and I'm pointing that out.

    1) No, the Leonard trade wasn't worse then the rumored trade with Toronto

    2) No, recent history doesn't show the Spurs taking bad trades

    3) No, Collins being replaced with Gallo is not a sign the value went down, as the Spurs weren't getting Collins in the previous rumor either.

    Point that out isn't curbing discussion unless the discussion is contingent on parroting falsehoods. I'm constantly critical of the Spurs; being so here is a perfectly fine discussion stance. That's not a shield against misreading tweets though.
    At this juncture, I feel the rationale for trading or not trading DJ (or Jak for that matter. If you trade DJ you better trae Jak too) are well laid out.

    At this point, I’d love to hear sharp posters (like you) lay out what you feel are good (yet realistic) returns for these assets that align with the Spurs mythology for trade making. Still not sure I love the idea of trading DJ, but this is a message board so I’d love to hear what “good” trades look like

  16. #616
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.
    Whether it's Murray or Collins, the only teams willing to give up unprotected 2023 picks are those that have extra picks like the four I mentioned or who think they're so much of a contender that they will not give up a good pick. The odds of teams in that later category giving up a pick with lottery chances about 10 is very small in my mind. You could have a clearer target if you waited until the deadline, but teams at real risk of giving up a lotto pick will protect their picks way more. It's much easier to get a 2024 pick without protection and hit on that. The easiest way to improve the draft picks directly is to make the trade during the draft itself. I'd gauge the Spurs' chances of getting a better selection are better if they hold onto Murray this whole than if they traded him now.

  17. #617
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    Whether it's Murray or Collins, the only teams willing to give up unprotected 2023 picks are those that have extra picks like the four I mentioned or who think they're so much of a contender that they will not give up a good pick. The odds of teams in that later category giving up a pick with lottery chances about 10 is very small in my mind. You could have a clearer target if you waited until the deadline, but teams at real risk of giving up a lotto pick will protect their picks way more. It's much easier to get a 2024 pick without protection and hit on that. The easiest way to improve the draft picks directly is to make the trade during the draft itself. I'd gauge the Spurs' chances of getting a better selection are better if they hold onto Murray this whole than if they traded him now.
    You may very well be correct but, I think there are scenarios where Atlanta can get an unprotected 1st from NY or Portland that are likely to be mid to late lottery projected...

  18. #618
    Believe. south side spur's Avatar
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    I don’t think there’s really anything to this from the Spurs front office as far as Murray being “on the market”. This seems to be a one sided Atlanta pipe dream. We’re really going to get in an uproar over some nobody seeking Twitter clout? How many of y’all ever heard of this Fischer weasel? And then some Atlanta mediot weasel? How long does “on the verge” last?

    Now let’s just entertain this and say a trade goes through. Those of y’all that really think this is “blowing it up”, when White was traded, that term was kind of being thrown around on here and while Richardson isn’t a “better” basketball player compared to White he proved to be definitely “better” for the Spurs. He became a veteran leader which White wasn’t. The team listened and responded to him from the moment he arrived. He was a more reliable 3 point shooter. If a throw in like that can have that effect who’s to say it can’t happen again? Richardson wasn’t anything special yet he was a net positive for this team. Who knows maybe they re-sign Lonnie and put him at point.

    To think that trading Murray would accelerate a full tank is just being hyperbolic. I don’t wanna hear any analytical nonsense either he’s not carrying this team. He’s not putting this team on his back to the playoffs. This team is just kinda there. The real issue is there is no belief in Primo or Jones. According to many here the Spurs youth are the only players in the league that can never improve and will always just be what they are at 21 and 22 years old and yet every year when these kids improve it’s a total surprise as if players haven’t routinely did this within the Spurs organization. They’re definitely hitting more than missing. Primo and Jones could both fill in for Murray if he’s traded and this team won’t even drop in the standings.

    Some here are saying that these Atlanta picks will be in the 20s maybe even late 20s. No they won’t. Now I’m not saying they’ll all be lottery picks but we don’t really even know that for sure. In the East, Atlanta will not have more wins than Miami, Boston, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Toronto or Chicago. So they’ll be in the play in with Cleveland and Charlotte. This is with the expectation that Brooklyn loses both Kyrie and KD. How in the are these picks going to be in the late 20s I’m not even bringing up the West.

    I don’t want Murray to be traded. However, the Spurs can’t afford to pass on multiple first rounders. Regardless, what most of the whiners here believe, talent can be found throughout the draft. Many believe Branham was the steal of the draft at 20 and there are some who believe that Wesley has the most 2 way upside. Some analysts even believe that if he would’ve stayed in school he could’ve been on an Ivey type trajectory. More picks give this front office more shots at a Parker, Ginobili, Autistic Mute, Murray, White, KJ.

    I’m still hoping that IF a trade is imminent the talks turn to the desperate Knicks and the Spurs rape them but any multiple first round pick trade will not make this team worse, they’ll only lose a few games more than this season at most because of the continued ascension of KJ and Vassell. Let’s not make Murray more than what he is. He’s not a franchise altering player. I’m not even sure if he is a DeRozan.

  19. #619
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    I am in the camp of trade Murray as opposed to keep Murray, although I am fine with the latter. It also depends on the value you get back in a trade.

    Reasons I’m in the trade camp, I don’t see Murray as a top 2 option on a contender or championship team, his value is at or close to an all time high (based on production, contract value and years remaining) and will start to diminish from about the mid point of this upcoming season I.e once you get under 1.5 years remaining on the contract, he will command a max deal in two years which means the Spurs ceiling is limited if they sign him or let him walk.

    If im the Spurs I look for as many first round picks as possible and take on some bad salary. Teams can’t trade consecutive firsts so you’d look at something like a 2023 first, 2024 pick swap, 2025 first, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first. 3 years, let alone 5 years is such a longtime in the NBA that a team at the top now could easily be a cellar dweller in 3 years. Look at what’s happening with Brooklyn and look at all the picks the Rockets own from the Nets (swaps).

    Some teams who may be interested in Murray in addition to the Hawks might be Charlotte (defense and secondary playmaker next to Lamelo) Cleveland (defense and secondary playmaker next to Garland), Miami (third all-star next to Bam and Jimmy), Milwaukee (big drop off in talent after their big 3 of Giannis, Middleton and Holiday), New York (wants to win now and needs a PG), Washington (if they sign Beal to a max which looks likely), Lakers (Lebron and AD window), Dallas (Luka window), Denver (Jokic window), Minnesota (third star next to KAT and Edwards, Sacramento (Sabonis and Fox), Portland (Lillard window). All of these teams are in win now mode and tied to big contracts with players. Not saying they will all want Murray, but there’s teams out there that Murray could elevate to a contender.

  20. #620
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    This is what selling guys at peak value looks like. Wright gets his rebuild armed with multiple picks. Jakob and Keldon maybe next since they are not his guys.

  21. #621
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    If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip
    But the dude is a flake and that me being nice no way would I trade for him

  22. #622
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    I am in the camp of trade Murray as opposed to keep Murray, although I am fine with the latter. It also depends on the value you get back in a trade.

    Reasons I’m in the trade camp, I don’t see Murray as a top 2 option on a contender or championship team, his value is at or close to an all time high (based on production, contract value and years remaining) and will start to diminish from about the mid point of this upcoming season I.e once you get under 1.5 years remaining on the contract, he will command a max deal in two years which means the Spurs ceiling is limited if they sign him or let him walk.

    If im the Spurs I look for as many first round picks as possible and take on some bad salary. Teams can’t trade consecutive firsts so you’d look at something like a 2023 first, 2024 pick swap, 2025 first, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first. 3 years, let alone 5 years is such a longtime in the NBA that a team at the top now could easily be a cellar dweller in 3 years. Look at what’s happening with Brooklyn and look at all the picks the Rockets own from the Nets (swaps).

    Some teams who may be interested in Murray in addition to the Hawks might be Charlotte (defense and secondary playmaker next to Lamelo) Cleveland (defense and secondary playmaker next to Garland), Miami (third all-star next to Bam and Jimmy), Milwaukee (big drop off in talent after their big 3 of Giannis, Middleton and Holiday), New York (wants to win now and needs a PG), Washington (if they sign Beal to a max which looks likely), Lakers (Lebron and AD window), Dallas (Luka window), Denver (Jokic window), Minnesota (third star next to KAT and Edwards, Sacramento (Sabonis and Fox), Portland (Lillard window). All of these teams are in win now mode and tied to big contracts with players. Not saying they will all want Murray, but there’s teams out there that Murray could elevate to a contender.
    I agree with this. Losing Murray doesn't mean the Spurs will automatically go from a 40 win team to a 20 win team, or even a 30 win team. They might not even suffer much of a drop off with improvements and bigger roles for Keldon, Devin, Primo. Not to mention Sochan and Branham added to the mix. I think Murrays stats are more Derozan-esque than they are say Duncan-esque for example.

  23. #623
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    I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

    Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?
    Because you're looking for a franchise player top 10 in the league not a low level all star like Murray.

  24. #624
    Dyna5ty BatManu20's Avatar
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    Oh .



  25. #625
    Remember kobyz's Avatar
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    Murray to Washington seems the most logical: Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, Ishmael Smith, Isaiah Todd, Thomas Bryant(s&t), 3 future firsts for Murray, Josh Richardson

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