Mavs: What old basketball games or clips have you been watching lately?

[Dirks_Finale]

Terry was a 6th man but don’t tell me Stevenson was better offensively than Terry
JET was on the bench otherwise that 2nd unit would have been lacking

So Terry, 0 times an all star, 0 times all-NBA is basically at the same level as Lebron offensively, then? Got it Today's NBA I would also remind you that Manu was a bench player who actually made all star/all nba teams. There is a difference there in quality.

And you can point to single games(BTW, you could do that with anyone in the history of the game), but you cant show me where killer Jordan was getting outscored by inferior players for the duration of a playoff series...much less the damn NBA Finals

And Zeke Thomas would average 30 and 15 in today's sawft, skinny jeans, non contact, please don't offend me, NBA.

[lefty]

So Terry, 0 times an all star, 0 times all-NBA is basically at the same level as Lebron offensively, then? Got it Today's NBA I would also remind you that Manu was a bench player who actually made all star/all nba teams. There is a difference there in quality.

And you can point to single games(BTW, you could do that with anyone in the history of the game), but you cant show me where killer Jordan was getting outscored by inferior players for the duration of a playoff series...much less the damn NBA Finals

And Zeke Thomas would average 30 and 15 in today's sawft, skinny jeans, non contact, please don't offend me, NBA.

Where did I say he was on the same level as Lebron ?

Zeke was good for his era but let’s face it he would be Terry Rozier at best if he played today

[Neo.]

So Terry, 0 times an all star, 0 times all-NBA is basically at the same level as Lebron offensively, then? Got it Today's NBA I would also remind you that Manu was a bench player who actually made all star/all nba teams. There is a difference there in quality.

And you can point to single games(BTW, you could do that with anyone in the history of the game), but you cant show me where killer Jordan was getting outscored by inferior players for the duration of a playoff series...much less the damn NBA Finals

And Zeke Thomas would average 30 and 15 in today's sawft, skinny jeans, non contact, please don't offend me, NBA.

it was not a shining moment for lebron, but the situations between mike and lebron throughout their entire careers (and especially a year like that) are not remotely similar. either take everything into consideration, or quit comparing the two. you continue to just cherry pick stuff on lebron.

[Dirks_Finale]

It was more than a "moment" it was a whole series.

And it sounds like you are cherry picking which posts of mine you actually read. I have given Lebron props for both 2016 and for 2007. The fact of the matter is Jordan has no 2011 type series to point at. Out of shape baseball Jordan in 95 is all you and lefty have to point to, and it's weak in comparison, tbh.

it was not a shining moment for lebron, but the situations between mike and lebron throughout their entire careers (and especially a year like that) are not remotely similar. either take everything into consideration, or quit comparing the two. you continue to just cherry pick stuff on lebron.

[Dirks_Finale]

You are trolling again

Where did I say he was on the same level as Lebron ?

Zeke was good for his era but let’s face it he would be Terry Rozier at best if he played today

[Neo.]

It was more than a "moment" it was a whole series.

And it sounds like you are cherry picking which posts of mine you actually read. I have given Lebron props for both 2016 and for 2007. The fact of the matter is Jordan has no 2011 type series to point at. Out of shape baseball Jordan in 95 is all you and lefty have to point to, and it's weak in comparison, tbh.

so lebron was bad for all 6 games? he had several very good games in the series too, don't get it twisted. his scoring numbers werent particularly high, but that was largely because wade was able to score at will, and dallas defense was allowing that while being heavily focused on getting the ball out of lebrons hands quickly. even rick said their gameplan was to use a matchup zone to trap lebron early in possessions and force other players to beat them. as a fellow mavs fan you of all people should know this. not only that, but whether people want to admit it or not, Dallas was simply a better basketball team. had they stayed healthy, they probably win 64-65 games that year. Miami had more star power, but the depth wasn't remotely comparable, Dallas was 12 deep with quality players, not to mention a far superior coach.

additionally, lebron wasn't close to being fully developed as a player. he was so good at such a young age that people forget how young he actually was. since you continue to make mike comparisons, at the exact same age, mike was also getting mindscrewed by detroit into forcing a bunch of terrible shots himself and phasing his teammates out. eventually he learned how to win (by trusting and involving his teammates more) when he hit 27. lebron did the same (by learning when to take over games as a scorer).

if mike is sooooooooooo much greater than lebron, then why do you hold him to a lower standard than lebron?

[Dirks_Finale]

I like Spo a lot. I think you Lebron backers purposely underrate him in order to prop up your king . But he is not as good as Rick, I'll concede that much.

My whole point about that 2011 series is that when they needed him to come up big, he repeatedly failed. GM 2, MIA is up like 13 midway through the 4th...all they needed was Lebron to score a single basket and they win. Gm4 MIA has the lead going into the 4th. Lebron scored 8 total points in that game. Had he resembled an NBA star, they go up 3-1 and the series is essentially over. The crucial game 5, he gets outscored by Dirk, Jet, Wade and Bosh. And in the closeout game, gets outplayed by a bench player in Jet.

You are making the age comparison but leaving out the details. Lebron came into the NBA with an NBA ready body...out of high school. He wins in 2012 after 9 years and what did he say...? FINALLY!! Because he knew a guy hyped as much as he was was not meeting expectations.

And I never said MJ was so much better. I think Lebron is a top 10 player all time. It's not like that is chicken liver or some s#$t He just isn't killer Jordan. Nobody is though.

so lebron was bad for all 6 games? he had several very good games in the series too, don't get it twisted. his scoring numbers werent particularly high, but that was largely because wade was able to score at will, and dallas defense was allowing that while being heavily focused on getting the ball out of lebrons hands quickly. even rick said their gameplan was to use a matchup zone to trap lebron early in possessions and force other players to beat them. as a fellow mavs fan you of all people should know this. not only that, but whether people want to admit it or not, Dallas was simply a better basketball team. had they stayed healthy, they probably win 64-65 games that year. Miami had more star power, but the depth wasn't remotely comparable, Dallas was 12 deep with quality players, not to mention a far superior coach.

additionally, lebron wasn't close to being fully developed as a player. he was so good at such a young age that people forget how young he actually was. since you continue to make mike comparisons, at the exact same age, mike was also getting mindscrewed by detroit into forcing a bunch of terrible shots himself and phasing his teammates out. eventually he learned how to win (by trusting and involving his teammates more) when he hit 27. lebron did the same (by learning when to take over games as a scorer).

if mike is sooooooooooo much greater than lebron, then why do you hold him to a lower standard than lebron?

[Neo.]

I like Spo a lot. I think you Lebron backers purposely underrate him in order to prop up your king . But he is not as good as Rick, I'll concede that much.

spo has become a very good coach, but at that time, he was not a good coach. its not a stretch to say that the experience helped him a lot.

My whole point about that 2011 series is that when they needed him to come up big, he repeatedly failed. GM 2, MIA is up like 13 midway through the 4th...all they needed was Lebron to score a single basket and they win. Gm4 MIA has the lead going into the 4th. Lebron scored 8 total points in that game. Had he resembled an NBA star, they go up 3-1 and the series is essentially over. The crucial game 5, he gets outscored by Dirk, Jet, Wade and Bosh. And in the closeout game, gets outplayed by a bench player in Jet.

yes he did fail, no one ever denied that. as a mavs fan i am glad he failed too. but he failed against a better team, in a situation where the heat still had virtually no chemistry. even several of the mavs players said that in playing against them, miamis offense was completely dysfunctional that year, and that the next year they would have had absolutely no chance because the chemistry was better and lebron became so much better of a player.

you continue to ignore the fact that the 2011 series was not lebron at his prime. he was still developing. it would have been much worse if he did something like that in 2017, during his prime years. but we all know that obviously would never happen, considering the fight he put up against KD warriors despite his team being horribly outmatched. he was without question the best player in both of those finals series, yet they went 1-8 because of the team mismatches. he clearly developed massively as a player since 2011. if you take 2017 lebron and replace the 2011 version of him on that heat squad, they almost certainly destroy the mavs.

You are making the age comparison but leaving out the details. Lebron came into the NBA with an NBA ready body...out of high school. He wins in 2012 after 9 years and what did he say...? FINALLY!! Because he knew a guy hyped as much as he was was not meeting expectations.

plenty of people said mike could have went right to the NBA from high school as well. college was probably a great way for him to learn some things that lebron didnt get to learn until losing in 2011.

And I never said MJ was so much better. I think Lebron is a top 10 player all time. It's not like that is chicken liver or some s#$t He just isn't killer Jordan. Nobody is though.

okay well then if MJ is better, you should be holding jordan to a higher standard than lebron, and likewise criticizing him for being a garbage teammate until repeatedly getting destroyed by the pistons and celtics finally taught him to play a better team game, just the same way getting beat by boston, orlando and dallas helped teach lebron how to pick and choose the right times to take over games as a scorer.

fact is, they both had to learn things for several years before they could win rings, because neither of them were just gifted with superstar teammates right off the bat the way guys like kobe, magic and bird were. the difference was that lebrons shortcomings were seen on a bigger stage and under a bigger microscope than mikes were. but mike failed just as miserably as lebron, just in a different aspect of basketball than scoring.

[Dirks_Finale]

Some points:

1.) Was their chemistry really that bad? Let's consider who they beat to get to the Finals. That Rose led Bulls team was no slouch. 1st in defensive ratings, 62 wins and the MVP of the NBA leading them. Oh, they also had HCA. The Heat also beat the Celtics who won 56 and were 2nd overall defensively with a championship pedigree. This was not the 2007 Eastern conference. They mowed down some serious compeition to get there. Hard for me to buy the chemistry sucked considering the results. But yes, I do recall some of the Mavs making chemistry comments. Didn't buy it, but I do recall it. I'm also a Dallas fan and seeing how well Miami played in the Eastern playoffs, i thought we had pretty crappy odds of winning going into that series, tbh. Honestly, what was your feelings going into it about our chances? Remember, I said honestly

2.) Prime years -- this is subjective. Some say it's age 25, others say 26 or 27. I do know he had been in the NBA 9 years before he won and 2011 was not his first Finals trip.

3.) They both have failures. No doubt about it. But MJ does not have that sort of 2011 black mark on his resume. If he did, I'd be more apt to include others in the GOAT conversation to include Lebron.

4.) The last dance revealed to the world just how ty of a teammate MJ was. It was even worse than I had imagined with the no food for Horace Grant on the plane thing . But it's really hard to argue with 6-0...Really, really hard

spo has become a very good coach, but at that time, he was not a good coach. its not a stretch to say that the experience helped him a lot.



yes he did fail, no one ever denied that. as a mavs fan i am glad he failed too. but he failed against a better team, in a situation where the heat still had virtually no chemistry. even several of the mavs players said that in playing against them, miamis offense was completely dysfunctional that year, and that the next year they would have had absolutely no chance because the chemistry was better and lebron became so much better of a player.

you continue to ignore the fact that the 2011 series was not lebron at his prime. he was still developing. it would have been much worse if he did something like that in 2017, during his prime years. but we all know that obviously would never happen, considering the fight he put up against KD warriors despite his team being horribly outmatched. he was without question the best player in both of those finals series, yet they went 1-8 because of the team mismatches. he clearly developed massively as a player since 2011. if you take 2017 lebron and replace the 2011 version of him on that heat squad, they almost certainly destroy the mavs.



plenty of people said mike could have went right to the NBA from high school as well. college was probably a great way for him to learn some things that lebron didnt get to learn until losing in 2011.



okay well then if MJ is better, you should be holding jordan to a higher standard than lebron, and likewise criticizing him for being a garbage teammate until repeatedly getting destroyed by the pistons and celtics finally taught him to play a better team game, just the same way getting beat by boston, orlando and dallas helped teach lebron how to pick and choose the right times to take over games as a scorer.

fact is, they both had to learn things for several years before they could win rings, because neither of them were just gifted with superstar teammates right off the bat the way guys like kobe, magic and bird were. the difference was that lebrons shortcomings were seen on a bigger stage and under a bigger microscope than mikes were. but mike failed just as miserably as lebron, just in a different aspect of basketball than scoring.

[lefty]

Also the Mavs Zone Defense was fantastic in the Finals

Zone D was still fairly recent and Dallas was one of the best teams in that department

It's harder to attack agianst zone D tbh

[Dirks_Finale]

That was all Dwayne Casey with some credit also to Carlisle. Their zone was confusing as because it morphed into man and then suddenly back to zone.

But what's interesting is how the 2011 Mavs are consistenly ranked as one of the worst le teams ever. Seriously, everytime a list comes out Dallas is near the bottom of it. But when it's time to defend Lebron, suddenly it's all world le team

Also the Mavs Zone Defense was fantastic in the Finals

Zone D was still fairly recent and Dallas was one of the best teams in that department

It's harder to attack agianst zone D tbh

[Neo.]

That was all Dwayne Casey with some credit also to Carlisle. Their zone was confusing as because it morphed into man and then suddenly back to zone.

But what's interesting is how the 2011 Mavs are consistenly ranked as one of the worst le teams ever. Seriously, everytime a list comes out Dallas is near the bottom of it. But when it's time to defend Lebron, suddenly it's all world le team

or maybe on the other end, people rank it so lowly because it's an easy and fun way to attack lebron

they weren't an all time great team, but they were much better than people give them credit for, and without question better than Miami that year

[Neo.]

Some points:

1.) Was their chemistry really that bad? Let's consider who they beat to get to the Finals. That Rose led Bulls team was no slouch. 1st in defensive ratings, 62 wins and the MVP of the NBA leading them. Oh, they also had HCA. The Heat also beat the Celtics who won 56 and were 2nd overall defensively with a championship pedigree. This was not the 2007 Eastern conference. They mowed down some serious compeition to get there. Hard for me to buy the chemistry sucked considering the results. But yes, I do recall some of the Mavs making chemistry comments. Didn't buy it, but I do recall it. I'm also a Dallas fan and seeing how well Miami played in the Eastern playoffs, i thought we had pretty crappy odds of winning going into that series, tbh. Honestly, what was your feelings going into it about our chances? Remember, I said honestly

2.) Prime years -- this is subjective. Some say it's age 25, others say 26 or 27. I do know he had been in the NBA 9 years before he won and 2011 was not his first Finals trip.

3.) They both have failures. No doubt about it. But MJ does not have that sort of 2011 black mark on his resume. If he did, I'd be more apt to include others in the GOAT conversation to include Lebron.

4.) The last dance revealed to the world just how ty of a teammate MJ was. It was even worse than I had imagined with the no food for Horace Grant on the plane thing . But it's really hard to argue with 6-0...Really, really hard

So you think they had good chemistry? I suppose the 03-04 Lakers had good chemistry too then, simply because they made it to the finals.

And you think that LeBron's personal best years included his 2010-11 season? You legit don't feel he has been a better basketball player literally every season since then?

and no one argued against 6-0. but it's not that hard to go 6-0 when you are far and away better than your opponent all 6 times.

[Dirks_Finale]

or maybe on the other end, people rank it so lowly because it's an easy and fun way to attack lebron

they weren't an all time great team, but they were much better than people give them credit for, and without question better than Miami that year

I like to think the team is better than the talking heads give them credit for. But realistically it's a one star team like the 94 Rockets and to a certain extent the 03 spurs.

[Dirks_Finale]

So you think they had good chemistry? I suppose the 03-04 Lakers had good chemistry too then, simply because they made it to the finals.

And you think that LeBron's personal best years included his 2010-11 season? You legit don't feel he has been a better basketball player literally every season since then?

and no one argued against 6-0. but it's not that hard to go 6-0 when you are far and away better than your opponent all 6 times.

I saw some of the same issues from Lebron in the 2013 Finals that existed in 2011. The difference was his confidence. He didn't lose it in 2013 even when they were on the brink the way he did in 2011. Would you agree with that?

[Neo.]

I saw some of the same issues from Lebron in the 2013 Finals that existed in 2011. The difference was his confidence. He didn't lose it in 2013 even when they were on the brink the way he did in 2011. Would you agree with that?

no, I don't agree that a short stretch where Tony Parker hit a prayer of a shot, then LeBron had one unfortunate turnover, followed up by Chris bosh being a re on a wide open alley oop is remotely anything like the shortcomings he had in 2011, especially when he singlehandedly got them back into the game, and hit the three that even made rays shot be worth anything whatsoever, then followed it up with one of the greatest game 7s ever.

[Dirks_Finale]

I realize the game is more than scoring, but look back at the 1st half of the series and how the Spurs were defending him, keeping him out of the paint. It flustered him. 17 points in Gm1(7 of 16), 17 points again in game 2( 7 of 17). 15 points in Gm 3(7 of 21) I thought I was watching 2011 Finals all over again. The difference is he didn't lose confidence and willed his team going forward. There was a little bit of a bailout in GM 6 when he had multiple turnovers and bricks at the end, but pretty much all le teams get some luck along the way so I don't hold it against him. But I do get the Skip Bayless' of the world who choose to do so.

no, I don't agree that a short stretch where Tony Parker hit a prayer of a shot, then LeBron had one unfortunate turnover, followed up by Chris bosh being a re on a wide open alley oop is remotely anything like the shortcomings he had in 2011, especially when he singlehandedly got them back into the game, and hit the three that even made rays shot be worth anything whatsoever, then followed it up with one of the greatest game 7s ever.

[Neo.]

I realize the game is more than scoring, but look back at the 1st half of the series and how the Spurs were defending him, keeping him out of the paint. It flustered him. 17 points in Gm1(7 of 16), 17 points again in game 2( 7 of 17). 15 points in Gm 3(7 of 21) I thought I was watching 2011 Finals all over again. The difference is he didn't lose confidence and willed his team going forward. There was a little bit of a bailout in GM 6 when he had multiple turnovers and bricks at the end, but pretty much all le teams get some luck along the way so I don't hold it against him. But I do get the Skip Bayless' of the world who choose to do so.

ok so basically it was absolutely nothing like 2011

got it

[Dirks_Finale]

ok so basically it was absolutely nothing like 2011

got it

[Spurtacular]

I realize the game is more than scoring, but look back at the 1st half of the series and how the Spurs were defending him, keeping him out of the paint. It flustered him. 17 points in Gm1(7 of 16), 17 points again in game 2( 7 of 17). 15 points in Gm 3(7 of 21) I thought I was watching 2011 Finals all over again. The difference is he didn't lose confidence and willed his team going forward. There was a little bit of a bailout in GM 6 when he had multiple turnovers and bricks at the end, but pretty much all le teams get some luck along the way so I don't hold it against him. But I do get the Skip Bayless' of the world who choose to do so.

Lebron choked. White-Guilt Gregg bailed him out.

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron choked. White-Guilt Gregg bailed him out.

[Spurtacular]

[Spurtacular]

[Dirks_Finale]

What a game that was!

[i'm_still_beta]

Well, without watching vids, WNBA has a wage cup because it's ty product and nobody watches it, even women.