Tjarks: The Spurs Turn the Page and Look Ahead to . . . What, Exactly?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

down?

Ouch! Funny...but ouch.


Pop is one of those long-term planner types. He had Kawhi's entire career with the Spurs mapped out, along with the pieces he intended to put around him to keep the team relevant for the next ten years. That's probably why the FO even attempted to sooth egos and keep the plan in place despite the grumblings of Kawhi's discontent in San Antonio that started way back around the championship or even before.

We know Pop has a hard time deviating from his plan once he makes his mind up. We see that in his in-game coaching all the time. Pop pivots like an ocean-liner, and it's a trait that's become more prevalent as he's gotten older it seems. It's pretty obvious the FO really had a hard time changing course after Kawhi's departure. Kawhi fvcked us, and we didn't counter-punch nearly as well as we should have. It took several rounds of body blows and shots to the head for us to switch things up.

I think everyone, Spurs connected, did the best they could given the cir stances. Hindsight is 20-20. The armchair GMs around here always have it figured out though. Glad we have so many geniuses in this group. I learn a lot from everyone.

[MVPCues]

Ouch! Funny...but ouch.


Pop is one of those long-term planner types. He had Kawhi's entire career with the Spurs mapped out, along with the pieces he intended to put around him to keep the team relevant for the next ten years. That's probably why the FO even attempted to sooth egos and keep the plan in place despite the grumblings of Kawhi's discontent in San Antonio that started way back around the championship or even before.

We know Pop has a hard time deviating from his plan once he makes his mind up. We see that in his in-game coaching all the time. Pop pivots like an ocean-liner, and it's a trait that's become more prevalent as he's gotten older it seems. It's pretty obvious the FO really had a hard time changing course after Kawhi's departure. Kawhi fvcked us, and we didn't counter-punch nearly as well as we should have. It took several rounds of body blows and shots to the head for us to switch things up.

I think everyone, Spurs connected, did the best they could given the cir stances. Hindsight is 20-20. The armchair GMs around here always have it figured out though. Glad we have so many geniuses in this group. I learn a lot from everyone.

I was subscribed until the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph. We have switched things up now?

Forbes was literally the worst defender in the league before he went to Milwaukee. With Milwaukee he was literally the worst defender in the league. Why do we need to repeat that experiment? Zollins likely won't play at all this coming year. A good contract (if it is mostly unguaranteed and he can be let go after a year) doesn't make it a good decision. Anyone who thinks those are terrible decisions aren't claiming they have "it figured out". If signing those two is their best, maybe some leadership changes are warranted.

The Derozan trade was good, they got something out of the situation. Better than I expected. Signing Jock is a good gamble and could pay off if his confidence has merit in the NBA. Mcdermott was a little overpriced but OK so ignoring that move, viewing two A's and two F's as their best is allowing the bar to be too low for some people.

[Drom John]

So none of those teams tanked... I can't imagine why you brought any of them up, let alone got haughty because you thought they proved your point.

The Warriors tanked hard to keep their protected draft pick in 2012.
Harrison Barnes wasn't worth it, but that was some awful basketball.

The SuperSonics tanked for Durant.

[JeffDuncan]

So none of those teams tanked...

They all drafted their stars, and their stars stayed with them for years. And in many cases are still there.

You tried to argue that wasn’t the case in the modern era, and you were mistaken. Drafting your star really does still matter. The draft is very important.

[The Truth #6]

It's kind of weird how Bill Simmons sells The Ringer for hundreds of millions of dollars, and Tjarks, one of his premiere writers there for the NBA after KOC, gets cancer and has to hold fundraisers and beg for money to save his life.

Simmons knows how to take care of his guys

"Jonathan, you've helped build The Ringer into what it is today. So let me help you out: you can do a BBQ plate fundraiser, and make sure people see your baby as they drive by, you can get more sales that way. And don't wear your hat, let them see your chemo head. Good luck out there, I gotta go re-watch Necessary Roughness in my guest house theater room."

Damn. Didn’t know that. That’s awful.

[Chinook]

They all drafted their stars, and their stars stayed with them for years. And in many cases are still there.

You tried to argue that wasn’t the case in the modern era, and you were mistaken. Drafting your star really does still matter. The draft is very important.

No, obviously I didn't. Stars have to come into the league somehow. Duh. The point isn't that you can't draft a star. It's that the process of tanking to find a franchise player and only then deciding to be good doesn't work, because stars are impatient and don't stay with their teams a long time if they aren't willing. Guys on their second contracts when they couldn't walk aren't the same as the third-contract guys who actually run the league. The window from when a guy becomes a top-five to -10 player to when he gets to the end of his second contract is usually short, and that's when you see most move. The Spurs would be better off collecting assets to trade for one of those guys than they would of drafting such a guy and keeping him. Leonard was uniquely snakey in how he left, but leaving the general is the norm.

It works both ways. Stars are more likely to leave and are thus worse long-term investments for a tanking team. But thw greater than number of stars on the move makes it more likely for a team to snag one. The Spurs have to accept this reality instead of hoping to draft the next Duncan.

[Chinook]

The Warriors tanked hard to keep their protected draft pick in 2012.
Harrison Barnes wasn't worth it, but that was some awful basketball.

The SuperSonics tanked for Durant.

I don't mean keeping guys off the court because the season is over and wins can only hurt the draft stock. I have no issue with pivoting to that (which I've called "stealth-tanking" when advocating for it on this board) around the TDL if thing go wrong. I'm talking about Philly-style tanking where you're trying to lose games from the outset due to hamstringing the roster to maximize assets. If the Spurs owed a pic they could protect by dropping a couple of meaningless games at the end of season, I'd want them to lose.

I don't mean tanking to get those players per se. I mean tanking as a way to build the team. They blew it up and got extremely lucky to draft three MVPs in a row. That way, they did all their building very quickly. That's not normal. The closest replicant to that is Memphis with JJJ and Ja, but they're actually an example of why you don't need to tank to turn it around anyway.

[KobesAchilles]

We have officially given the keys to DJM. Whether or not that’s the direction people want doesn’t matter but we clearly have a direction in mind for this year. I can’t speak for the future but for this one particular year, it looks like the Spurs have gone all in on DJM and are going to see whether or not we have a star or secondary star in the making.

Dejounte has a very simplistic running of the offense. He doesn’t really have a feel for getting players involved other than to drive and kick. Well we have made that as easy as possible for him. Simple reads and simple decisions. High pick n roll with Jak at the 3 point line, take on the opposing Center, either find your midrange shot/finish at the rim or just drive to the hoop and kick it out to the wide open man when the defense collapses.

This year we have gone all in of DJM and it will finally give us an evaluation of whether or not he is a key franchise piece. And we don’t even have to be that good to recognize this. Zach Lavine is a perfect example of this. He is clearly a star player but not a franchise player. If the Bulls knew how to actually draft, instead of picking players like Wendell Carter or Colby something or Patrick Williams, then they would be in a much better spot

If DJM turns out to be a real #2 guy then that is one problem solved and opens the door to so many things.

[PrimeMinister]

a starting line up with demar derozan in it will never run complex half court sets or do anything outside drive and kick

dj made a massive leap last year in his ball handling and creation off the dribble. lets see what he can do next year within the context of a team that actually makes sense.

[The Truth #6]

We have officially given the keys to DJM. Whether or not that’s the direction people want doesn’t matter but we clearly have a direction in mind for this year. I can’t speak for the future but for this one particular year, it looks like the Spurs have gone all in on DJM and are going to see whether or not we have a star or secondary star in the making.

Dejounte has a very simplistic running of the offense. He doesn’t really have a feel for getting players involved other than to drive and kick. Well we have made that as easy as possible for him. Simple reads and simple decisions. High pick n roll with Jak at the 3 point line, take on the opposing Center, either find your midrange shot/finish at the rim or just drive to the hoop and kick it out to the wide open man when the defense collapses.

This year we have gone all in of DJM and it will finally give us an evaluation of whether or not he is a key franchise piece. And we don’t even have to be that good to recognize this. Zach Lavine is a perfect example of this. He is clearly a star player but not a franchise player. If the Bulls knew how to actually draft, instead of picking players like Wendell Carter or Colby something or Patrick Williams, then they would be in a much better spot

If DJM turns out to be a real #2 guy then that is one problem solved and opens the door to so many things.

Solid insight. With the addition of those shooters it really could be a test of DJM. Forbes spacing, I suppose, could be there to help other players develop. It feels counter intuitive, but I’m thinking about it.

[Russ]

Forbes was literally the worst defender in the league before he went to Milwaukee. With Milwaukee he was literally the worst defender in the league. Why do we need to repeat that experiment? Zollins likely won't play at all this coming year. A good contract (if it is mostly unguaranteed and he can be let go after a year) doesn't make it a good decision. Anyone who thinks those are terrible decisions aren't claiming they have "it figured out". If signing those two is their best, maybe some leadership changes are warranted.

Forbes was #249 of out 250 defensive players last year.

Patty Mills was #213 out of 250 defensive players last year.

In all seriousness, what's the big deal?

[objective]

Damn. Didn’t know that. That’s awful.

Slight exaggerating for comedy purposes. There was a fundraiser, I don't know if there was bbq, he was there, I think it was at a restaurant or bar but not literally waving at traffic

But

It was promoted on some of the Locked on Network podcasts, where he doesn't even work or appear as a guest. But i never heard it mentioned on any of The Ringer NBA related podcasts. This was all in the run up to the draft so i listened to almost everything NBA related and was flummoxed at him being taken care of by a rival podcast network.

[MVPCues]

Forbes was #249 of out 250 defensive players last year.

Patty Mills was #213 out of 250 defensive players last year.

In all seriousness, what's the big deal?

Thanks for the correction, I didn't know Forbes improved so much. Solid signing.

[Seventyniner]

Forbes was #249 of out 250 defensive players last year.

Patty Mills was #213 out of 250 defensive players last year.

In all seriousness, what's the big deal?

There's no reason to have either on the team at this point. Signing Forbes is a huge unforced error.

[Russ]

Thanks for the correction, I didn't know Forbes improved so much. Solid signing.

Let me horrify you even more.

The actual worst defender in the league (#250 out of 250) was some scrub named Trae Young.

So our off-season could have been even worse if we signed that guy!

[MultiTroll]

Let me horrify you even more.

The actual worst defender in the league (#250 out of 250) was some scrub named Trae Young.

So our off-season could have been even worse if we signed that guy!

Ahahahahahaha.

Because Forbes provides what Trae Young does on offense.

[JeffDuncan]

No, obviously I didn't. ...

Obviously, you did. Perhaps in some way that was not obvious, and taking into account the complexities of language, the inherent limitations of media, the vagaries and peculiarities of this particular language we call English, the abiding questions about communication itself, and indeed, the eternal debate about the very concept of “meaning,” a weak contention might be advanced that you failed in some hypothetical way to do so. But obviously, you did.

[Chinook]

Obviously, you did. Perhaps in some way that was not obvious, and taking into account the complexities of language, the inherent limitations of media, the vagaries and peculiarities of this particular language we call English, the abiding questions about communication itself, and indeed, the eternal debate about the very concept of “meaning,” a weak contention might be advanced that you failed in some hypothetical way to do so. But obviously, you did.

No, I didn't say you can't draft stars, even in that snippet you quoted. I said you can't build through the draft by tanking. You then listed examples that didn't show that since you think a team keeping their star for ninish years means they built through the draft. Stop cutting responses off, and you wouldn't run into situations like this. You did it again here, again missing what I said and meant and why.

[JeffDuncan]

No, I didn't say you can't draft stars, ...

I know you can’t keep track. What I replied to was this:

“ You can't build through the draft nowadays -- especially by tanking. Players' don't have the patience for it. ...”

In fact, yes, you can build through the draft. Nor can you fault player’s patience when they stay with their original teams for 7 yrs, 9 yrs, 12 yrs etc.

[Chinook]

I know you can’t keep track. What I replied to was this:

“ You can't build through the draft nowadays -- especially by tanking. Players' don't have the patience for it. ...”

In fact, yes, you can build through the draft. Nor can you fault player’s patience when they stay with their original teams for 7 yrs, 9 yrs, 12 yrs etc.

Dude, what's wrong with you? Milwaukee didn't build through they draft. And players literally can't leave until after their second contracts. But they also aren't really franchise players until they're older. This is getting really annoying. You keep pulling a sentence to attack because you don't like dealing with nuanced points. It's a really bush-league tactic. If you're actually confused about why what I'm saying isn't refuted by your rebuttal just say that. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that you understand you're wrong and are just trolling. Because, , this isn't a hard point to get.

[acoelho1]

The issue with the Spurs is giving our young guys enough rope to grow and make mistakes while maximizing the amount of playing time. The Spurs are acting like Duncan, Ginobili & Parker are still on the team and have the time to slowly bring them into the fold. We won't know what we have until they are brought to the forefront and that may result in more losses but at least they are gaining experience at a faster rate and allows us to possibly get a higher caliber talent in the draft. I didn't see any benefit from bringing in DDR and it pretty much went as I expected. I like the talent we have ac ulated but they need to play extensive minutes. It's time to sink or swim.

[Sugus]

I am happy that at least they saw there was no reason in keeping the trio of ddr/gay/mills .The GM even made trades to attain draft capital....nice. I didn't think he had it in him. I was so sure they were going to give them loyalty deals. The only puzzling move was the Forbes signing. Overall B+ off season. It at least gave me some confidence that Wright is competent at his job.

It's actually been really interesting to watch the goalpost move in regards to the critique of the FO's plan and moves before the season ended, before FA began, and up to now. I remember a lot, to not say most ST users, being not only highly skeptical of the FO's ability to get "on track" with any sort of long-term plan (way, way too many comments about how they would immediately re-sign DeRozan, Mills and Gay at like 12:01 and carry on the mediocrity - too many to quote), but their ability to make any sort of moves at all (the endless jokes on "we like what we have", running it back, FO's supposed inability to recognize there was a problem/multiple problems and how to address them).

I despise the Forbes signing, as do most. But apart from that, I don't think anyone can deny that the Spurs have been not only incredibly active in FA (with more moves seemingly on the horizon), but also very aggressive in aiming towards their rebuilding strategy. I get the complaints that it's not the strategy everyone would've liked, but seeing the new criticisms over which FA project we signed or the protections on this or that pick we got back in a trade sure is a different tune from the pre-end of the season, apocalyptic takes of "Spurs ain't gonna do and run it back and you're gonna like it".

The epitome of this for me was posters cutting their cloths over the protections on the Bulls' pick we got on the DDR trade. Weren't we supposedly gonna re-sign him to a terrible deal and carry on the non-playoffs, non-sucking limbo? Weren't we gonna let him walk in FA and "waste another asset"? Weren't we gonna be "looking even worse in the Nephew trade"? Wasn't the pick going to never convey, or turn into 2nds, or whatever? Such a different tune being sung these days...

It's a pity Spurstalk doesn't have a good, easy to use, in-forum search function. Saves a lotta posters' asses for sure.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I was subscribed until the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph. We have switched things up now?

Forbes was literally the worst defender in the league before he went to Milwaukee. With Milwaukee he was literally the worst defender in the league. Why do we need to repeat that experiment? Zollins likely won't play at all this coming year. A good contract (if it is mostly unguaranteed and he can be let go after a year) doesn't make it a good decision. Anyone who thinks those are terrible decisions aren't claiming they have "it figured out". If signing those two is their best, maybe some leadership changes are warranted.

The Derozan trade was good, they got something out of the situation. Better than I expected. Signing Jock is a good gamble and could pay off if his confidence has merit in the NBA. Mcdermott was a little overpriced but OK so ignoring that move, viewing two A's and two F's as their best is allowing the bar to be too low for some people.

I think by Spurs' standards, they have changed things up a bit. Pop resigning Forbes was just confirmation that we haven't completely shed our old skin.

I'm with you. That's easily the sh!ttiest signing of the year. Made $22MM to Zach Collins look like a great move. I had to vent over the Forbes signing by spending an hour and a half doing some creative writing trying to spin my despair into something almost funny...all to ease my frustration.

I'm glad to see them making moves though. It could have been a lot worse. They could have used their capspace to resign Demar, Mills and Gay. At least they're not running it back with the same, sad group.

[JeffDuncan]

Dude, what's wrong with you? ...

I don’t know what’s wrong with you, dude. Don’t really care.

But you don’t need to be so defensive. And you don’t need to try to bury a discussion in bs when it’s pointed out that you’re mistaken about something. People aren’t doing that because they don’t like you.

As a famous man in the world of sports once said, get over yourself.

[MVPCues]

I think by Spurs' standards, they have changed things up a bit. Pop resigning Forbes was just confirmation that we haven't completely shed our old skin.

I'm with you. That's easily the sh!ttiest signing of the year. Made $22MM to Zach Collins look like a great move. I had to vent over the Forbes signing by spending an hour and a half doing some creative writing trying to spin my despair into something almost funny...all to ease my frustration.

I'm glad to see them making moves though. It could have been a lot worse. They could have used their capspace to resign Demar, Mills and Gay. At least they're not running it back with the same, sad group.

Yeah, you right. Could have been worse no doubt. I do have high hopes for the young guys to step up as clear leaders, and Jock to make some noise!