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  1. #2476
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Sorry, lack of compe ion doesn't equate to a favorable outcome for customers.
    the compe ion for services is still live among different doctors, surgeons, etc. and if all of them are now "in network" it would actually fuel compe ion among them, tbh

    People in their "earning years" who aren't minimum wage earners would likely pay more overall for this program than they pay for HC right now.
    where are you getting this from?

    The last thing I want from my government is them having even more control over my personal choices.
    i can buy this. but how exactly is that going to manifest. in a single payer system, the government plan is the only game in town. are some doctors going to forego all that and just hold out for cash business?

    That may be best for the collective. I don't live as a collective nor vote as one.
    of course you dont live as a collective. but thats the nature of government, taxes, etc. you cant tell the government that YOUR taxes should only benefit YOU. why are your tax funds being spent on fire department stations 11 miles from your home that is never going to be in your service?

  2. #2477
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    the compe ion for services is still live among different doctors, surgeons, etc. and if all of them are now "in network" it would actually fuel compe ion among them, tbh


    where are you getting this from?


    i can buy this. but how exactly is that going to manifest. in a single payer system, the government plan is the only game in town. are some doctors going to forego all that and just hold out for cash business?


    of course you dont live as a collective. but thats the nature of government, taxes, etc. you cant tell the government that YOUR taxes should only benefit YOU. why are your tax funds being spent on fire department stations 11 miles from your home that is never going to be in your service?
    1. Doctors aren't struggling for patients. The workload would increase dramatically. It wouldn't fuel compe ion. It would fuel more needless tests that the doc and clinic owners get paid for by the feds i.e. taxpayers. It would lead to more abuse without private insurance monitoring expenditures, and we know the feds can't monitor .

    2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.

    3. I don't trust the government to not abuse the control over HC for political reasons.

    4. The nature of government is why I don't want them controlling HC. Pointing out other expenditures that I don't directly benefit from isn't the best way to convince me I'm wrong.

  3. #2478
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    1. Doctors aren't struggling for patients. The workload would increase dramatically. It wouldn't fuel compe ion. It would fuel more needless tests that the doc and clinic owners get paid for by the feds i.e. taxpayers. It would lead to more abuse without private insurance monitoring expenditures, and we know the feds can't monitor .
    au contraire

    As journalists, we are peppered with press releases touting the fraud enforcement successes in Medicare and Medicaid, the government health plans. The federal Department of Justice and state Medicaid Fraud Control Units file thousands of criminal and civil cases a year (and still are accused of not being as aggressive as they could be). Clearly, their goal is to let folks know they will be prosecuted.

    But we rarely hear about the fraud enforcement efforts of private health insurers. These companies manage the plans of about 150 million Americans who get their health benefits through their employers. They’re sitting on a massive trove of claims data that can help identify scammers, and problems are routinely flagged by their members. And experts, including investigators who once worked for the insurers, tell me there’s rampant fraud against the private plans.

    The bottom line is significant: If a con artist, or a corrupt medical professional, makes off with health care dollars, those losses are not necessarily the insurers’. They will be passed on to people covered by the plans in the form of higher monthly premiums and out-of-pocket costs as well as reduced benefits.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/w...-laughed-at-us

    2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.


    3. I don't trust the government to not abuse the control over HC for political reasons.
    have we seen that manifest in medicare/medicaid?

    4. The nature of government is why I don't want them controlling HC. Pointing out other expenditures that I don't directly benefit from isn't the best way to convince me I'm wrong.
    its the reality of how many of your amenities are provided. you didnt personally pay for the roads/highways/police/fire dept that benefit you

  4. #2479
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.
    As the wealthiest country in the world, we have a variety of options available to support aMedicare for All, single-payer health care system that guarantees high quality, affordable healthcare as a right, not a privilege, to every man, woman, and child in this country.

    Those options include, but are not limited to:

    • Creating a 4 percent income-based premium paid by employees, exempting the first$29,000 in income for a family of four;
    • Imposing a 7.5 percent income-based premium paid by employers, exempting the first $2million in payroll to protect small businesses;
    • Eliminating health tax expenditures;$21.0 trillion$26.0 trillionHow $47 Trillion in National HealthExpenditures is Paid ForPrivateGovernment4
    • Making the federal income tax more progressive, including a marginal tax rate of up to70 percent on those making above $10 million, taxing earned and unearned income at thesame rates, and limiting tax deductions for filers in the top tax bracket;
    • Making the estate tax more progressive, including a 77 percent top rate on an inheritanceabove $1 billion;
    • Establishing a tax on extreme wealth;
    • Closing the “Gingrich-Edwards Loophole”;
    • Imposing a fee on large financial ins utions; and
    • Repealing corporate accounting gimmicks.

    These are just some of the policies that could provide revenue to finance Medicare for All. Underevery single one of these options the average American family will save thousands of dollars ayear because it will no longer be writing large checks to private health insurance companies.

    A study by RAND found that moving to a Medicare-for-all system in New York would save afamily with an income of $185,000 or less about $3,000 a year, on average. Citizens for TaxJustice found that middle class families would see their after-tax income go up by about $3,240 ayear under Medicare for All. Another study found that middle class families would spend about14 percent less of their income on health care than they do today. Even the projections from theMercatus Center suggest that the average American could save about $6,000 under Medicare forall over a 10-year period.
    https://www.sanders.senate.gov/downl...=1&inline=file

  5. #2480
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Those are ways to raise some revenue. What's the price tag?

    losing 770 million dollars from your 1bn estate inheritance.

    Gee I wonder why Bernie isn't more successful.

    You're not dragging me in to a quote fest.

    Nothing you've said really changes anything.

  6. #2481
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Those are ways to raise some revenue. What's the price tag?
    there were figures in the quote which you ignored

    losing 770 million dollars from your 1bn estate inheritance.
    no... 77% is the highest marginal rate only affecting inheritances north of 1 billion. so the first billion you inherit (lol first world problems) would not be subject to that rate. why do people always mess up marginal tax rates?

    You're not dragging me in to a quote fest.

    Nothing you've said really changes anything.
    how convenient

  7. #2482
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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  8. #2483
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    there were figures in the quote which you ignored


    no... 77% is the highest marginal rate only affecting inheritances north of 1 billion. so the first billion you inherit (lol first world problems) would not be subject to that rate. why do people always mess up marginal tax rates?


    how convenient
    Do you REALLY think billionaires are going to give that away?

    Where's Bernie's working plan? I could say "create a cure for cancer" as a plan, that would reduce medical costs significantly. So that's my plan, we are going to cure cancer, but if you act now we'll also take Jeff Bozo's money and give it to the first 100 callers.

  9. #2484
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Do you REALLY think billionaires are going to give that away?

    Where's Bernie's working plan? I could say "create a cure for cancer" as a plan, that would reduce medical costs significantly. So that's my plan, we are going to cure cancer, but if you act now we'll also take Jeff Bozo's money and give it to the first 100 callers.
    He’s proposing something that’s being done in just about every other major country

    you dont have to agree with the policy, but the constant "there's no way this can ever work or be implemented" stuff can be toned down... because we aren't the guinea pigs here.

    if you want to say that his bill wont feasibly be passed because of the political environment here in the states, and particularly in the senate, thats a different point entirely
    Last edited by spurraider21; 01-27-2020 at 12:37 AM.

  10. #2485
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Sorry George, but most Trump fans know exactly what Trump's policies are because he doesn't beat around the bush or sugar coat his agenda. This is obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense. Maybe try watching a rally sometime, and turning off Rachel Maddow. If you can't, at least put some effort in to your whataboutery.
    Don't even know who Maddow is, heard your folks watch it tho... Bernie doesn't sugar coat it or beat around the bush either, we're talking about his ignoramus base, you being a bring example.

    Do tell what you thought when Trump said he was going to have the best and cheapest healthcare for everyone, or that he was going to bring back manufacturing to America.

  11. #2486
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Sure, if you combine the data and look at it as a collective then it appears to be a problem of ours, but so would anything else. National disasters that affect a lot of people have one basic cause, and they are a problem of ours. Health related issues are caused by a large variety of things, some under the direct control of the patient (lifestyle related issues, self harm, etc..) and some not (genetic disorders, accidents, etc..). I don't consider these to be my problems. Sure collectively they put a strain on society, but that strain can be relieved without creating a free HC system. In fact, the single payer system would make it worse imo.
    But it isn't everything else. The few other areas where there's such a high disparity is probably military spending but we do generally get better outcomes there, not so in healthcare. And we're not paying just a bit more, we're paying substantially more for comparative outcomes.

    You mean onto the taxpayer. You're proposing that all medical costs be dumped onto the taxpayer. How does that make it better?
    It doesn't have to make it better, it has to make it cheaper. Removing a middle-man that's in it for profit is certainly one way to go about it. Handing the largest payer of healthcare the ability to negotiate down prices is another way to go about it. Changing the goal from fiduciary duty to shareholders to what's best for the patient is another way to go about it.

    Same with technology.
    Not really. Hardware is cheap everywhere. Software patents are largely unenforceable outside of the US. We get cheap technology in the US, not so with healthcare.

    All the stuff you're mentioning would be worse if the taxpayer was forced to pay more. More free for some doesn't work well for the group paying for it. I don't know why people keep pretending it would benefit me as a taxpayer. My HC coverage now is just fine. I don't have long wait times for specialist care, surgical needs, MRIs or CAT scans. My co-pay is manageable. My deductible is manageable. I could imagine if I was someone on dialysis or had cancer treatments where the chemo is a prescription medication that costs exorbitant amounts, I might be on the other side of that but that's not where I am. Right now I would be the loser in the equation. Like others here and elsewhere, my outlook is based mostly on how it would affect me. This is why I say it's not a problem of ours.

    People have a right to move to other countries if the HC system is to their liking more than here in the US. Of course they can use the democratic process to try to change what the US offers, but cherry picking only desirable aspects of other countries without considering what they give up or require to have that system is too convenient to be useful.
    I disagree. It's probably going to be relatively worse for people that have excellent care through his/her employment (me, I suspect you too). But I can't ignore it would be substantially better for half or more of Americans.
    Now, you can say you only care about you, that's fine. I've been on the other side of the coin, and I don't forget, even if now my situation is completely different.

    I haven't cherry picked anything, tbh... you travel a lot too, go to Canada, France, Brazil, get sick, walk into a hospital, get treatment, don't get a bill for it. That's not cherry picking, it's just the reality of it.

    The market will have to adjust when that happens.

    I don't pay 500 for any medication. The most I ever pay is about 20 dollars. This doesn't include my insurance payments. In my case, the ends don't justify the means.
    You're way below the average. The average is $1200 per person per year, which undeniably is the most expensive in the world (link)

    Again, we can look at your situation alone, or look at Americans as a whole. Ultimately, getting old and sick, unless you're Kobe, it's unavoidable, so it's going to catch up with you sooner or later.
    Last edited by ElNono; 01-27-2020 at 12:45 AM. Reason: typo

  12. #2487
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Ultimately, getting old and sick, unless you're Kobe, it's unavoidable, so it's going to catch up with you sooner or later.

  13. #2488
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    But you simply don't know because they are undo ented.
    Actually I do know, albeit I'll agree it's anecdotal, and haven't looked at actual stats. They get an ITIN number, and the main reason is that it helps them whenever they have a chance to obtain a green card if that ever becomes a possibility (ie: marriage). They have to show 3 years worth of taxes as part of the application process.

  14. #2489
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    I disagree. It's probably going to be relatively worse for people that have excellent care through his/her employment (me, I suspect you too). But I can't ignore it would be substantially better for half or more of Americans.
    Now, you can say you only care about you, that's fine. I've been on the other side of the coin, and I don't forget, even if now my situation is completely different.
    That's the biggest problem with conservatives. They have this ME ME ME at ude. If it doesn't affect ME then it don't matter. They lack the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Most conservatives don't care about a situation or a problem unless they are affected directly.

    DMC you were in the military right? I bet you have really good insurance as a result of. Who do you have? USAA?

  15. #2490
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    That's the biggest problem with conservatives. They have this ME ME ME at ude. If it doesn't affect ME then it don't matter. They lack the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Most conservatives don't care about a situation or a problem unless they are affected directly.

    DMC you were in the military right? I bet you have really good insurance as a result of. Who do you have? USAA?
    Honestly, everybody is en led to their opinion on this. Can't tell them not to look after themselves too, we do it too in different areas.

    Ultimately, I think it does come down to whether we want healthcare to be a simple ulus of transactions or we're looking for an overachieving goal that goes beyond the profit motive. It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side, and I really can't say anybody is wrong from picking one option over the other.

  16. #2491
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Honestly, everybody is en led to their opinion on this. Can't tell them not to look after themselves too, we do it too in different areas.

    Ultimately, I think it does come down to whether we want healthcare to be a simple ulus of transactions or we're looking for an overachieving goal that goes beyond the profit motive. It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side, and I really can't say anybody is wrong from picking one option over the other.
    Agree. Both sides have good arguments. Ultimately, it's about destroying or fixing the root cause of the problem - big pharma and private health insurance companies. Big pharma and private health insurance companies - the ones ripping off Americans - vehemently oppose Medicare 4 All. If that's what it takes to stop them ers from price gouging then I'm all for Medicare4All.

  17. #2492
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    i dont mind disagreement... its just the lazy objections that bother me

  18. #2493
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  19. #2494
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) AaronY's Avatar
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    Obama will wait in the shadows until a candidate is picked, then go campaign for/with him/her
    Yeah. Thats been his obvious plan this whole time. Let the field decide and help the Democratic party's nominee win. Some leftists make everything out like its the Pelican Brief.

  20. #2495
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    "It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side"

    if done right, intelligently like other industrial countries have done, the pros of no-profit govt insurance/healthcare FAR outweigh the for-profit wealth-sucking disaster we have now.

    America simply can have no-profit healthcare because BigMedicine/BigInsurance and their investors own enough politicians and judges.




  21. #2496
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    The Washington Post's Unhinged Bernie Bashing Reveals Establishment Panic

  22. #2497
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
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    The Washington Post's Unhinged Bernie Bashing Reveals Establishment Panic
    True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.

  23. #2498
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.


  24. #2499
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.
    Why not?

    Sounds like wishcasting. I thought 2016 rekt the conventional wisdom.

    Bernie Sanders has been the most popular and most trusted politician in the US for about four years.

  25. #2500
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    Why not?

    Sounds like wishcasting. I thought 2016 rekt the conventional wisdom.

    Bernie Sanders has been the most popular and most trusted politician in the US for about four years.
    Too bad his son couldn’t trust him for some support of his own.

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