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  1. #26
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    Typical bitter Horry.

    Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

    As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.
    All of this!!

  2. #27
    Gif-ted LakerHater's Avatar
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    he said he was better than Tim at practice!

    PRACTICE!

  3. #28
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    Olajuwon’s peak was higher than Duncan’s peak. Excuse-making aside, Olajuwon totally dominated two other Hall of Fame centers in the 1995 playoffs. He was head and shoulders above them.

    In 1994, he carried an otherwise mediocre team to a championship, one where the second-best player was Otis Thorpe.

    But before 1993 or so, he wasn’t “that guy” yet. Once Sampson broke down, the Rockets were middle-of-the-pack for years. Olajuwon didn’t make anyone better. He put up the numbers for years and years, but something just didn’t click until his early 30’s.

    With Duncan, he came into the league and was “that guy” by the middle of his rookie year. And he stayed that way for almost 20 years, though towards the end he had to learn to pick his spots. But Duncan never totally dominated his peers for entire playoff series like Olajuwon did. There were a few games that stand out against the Lakers in ‘99 and ‘03. But his peak just wasn’t as high, though the totality of his career was probably better. That’s why Duncan is a consensus Top 10 all-time player, while Olajuwon is usually Top 15.

    Horry was in Houston only for those peak Dream years. His opinion is understandable. Also, he carried the Spurs in the 4th quarter and overtime of the game that turned the ‘05 Finals around while Tim was making key mistakes down the stretch. Give him a break even if he’s being kind of a prick about it.
    A young Tim Duncan could have dominated those guys Hakeem went against in those two peak years of Hakeem's. Who exactly did Hakeem dominate in those runs? I can't think of many great Centers/PFs he went through apart from D-rob, Ewing and a young Shaq. D-rob had a ty coach and was getting triple teamed while Hakeem got single coverage. Patrick Ewing who I was never really impressed by in the 90s and a very young Shaq. I guess he also went against Karl Malone, but TD by his second year started to dominate Malone worse than Olajuwon did.

    I really do think a prime/young Tim Duncan could have done very similar against those opponents. I doubt Hakeem would have dominated prime Shaq, KG, Dirk any better than Tim if he had to go up against those guys. I will say Hakeem's two peak years were a touch better than Tim's, but I don't believe by much. Overall, for their entire careers, no way I'd put Olajuwon above Duncan.

  4. #29
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    Elle said Dream was better too

  5. #30
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    A young Tim Duncan could have dominated those guys Hakeem went against in those two peak years of Hakeem's. Who exactly did Hakeem dominate in those runs? I can't think of many great Centers/PFs he went through apart from D-rob, Ewing and a young Shaq. D-rob had a ty coach and was getting triple teamed while Hakeem got single coverage. Patrick Ewing who I was never really impressed by in the 90s and a very young Shaq. I guess he also went against Karl Malone, but TD by his second year started to dominate Malone worse than Olajuwon did.

    I really do think a prime/young Tim Duncan could have done very similar against those opponents. I doubt Hakeem would have dominated prime Shaq, KG, Dirk any better than Tim if he had to go up against those guys. I will say Hakeem's two peak years were a touch better than Tim's, but I don't believe by much. Overall, for their entire careers, no way I'd put Olajuwon above Duncan.
    Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.

  6. #31
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    its really not that outlandish a take
    It's not outlandish? It's a ing re ed take. His two peak years were a bit better than Tim's, but overall, no way is his career better than Tim's. To say he's 10 x better, that is a ing re ed take. Horry is saying some stupid .

    timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

    hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku
    Ahh Tim's 2003 le team is not better overall than either of the Rocket's Championship teams (at best it's on par).

    There hasn’t been a player to take a crap team on his back to a le like 2003 Tim in the last 30 years. The second best player on that team was probably Jack. David was done, playing a Kawhi like schedule. Parker was probably 4-5 years from being dangerous. Manu was a rookie who missed a big chunk of the beginning of the season, and constantly clashed with Pop. B2B MVP years Duncan was a basketball god.
    Very True. Finally some decent takes from actual Spurs fans.

    Typical bitter Horry.

    Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

    As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.
    Yep. I agree 100%. People are overrating those two Olajuwon seasons massively. He was great. It's debatable whether or not it's much better than Tim's best, but it sure as is not 10 x better.

    I pretty much agree with you here, but I also think it's important to mention that Duncan's main nemesis-- Prime Shaq-- was a more dominant & better all around player than Hakeem's main rivals-- Pre-Prime Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc...
    Very true. I mentioned something similar above. A Prime Shaq and Kobe may have dismantled those Rockets teams. D-Rob gets such as bad wrap for that one series. Head to heat he won a lot more against the Rockets than Hakeem did against the Spurs. In that playoff series Hakeem did not guard D-Rob straight up and D-Rob had to try and guard him one on one mostly as there was no-one else on the Spurs that could help him. Rodman checked out at the start of that series.

    This. People look back and go oh parker and manu and Robinson were on that team. Tim had three hall of famers. Don’t realize David was a s of himself and at best was a serviceable starter, Tony was in his second year and was regularly benched in close games and manu was a rookie bench player averaging 7 points a game. That team was all Tim

    Yep. I'm not sure how Spurs fans are forgetting this stuff.

    Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.
    Well, I am sure he was doubled at times, but D-Rob had no help so the Rockets could do it most of the series and get away with it. Rodman checked out and was no threat to score, so that's already one extra defender to send at D-Rob and then you had the ty Spurs guards where you could also send one of those defender's D-rob's way too. Really, those Spurs teams were vastly inferior to the Rockets and D-Rob was in a tough situation to try and get them over the line by himself.
    Last edited by Ice009; 08-29-2021 at 07:15 AM.

  7. #32
    44-50-21-1 Biggems's Avatar
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    He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.

  8. #33
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    He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.
    Well to be fair, Duncan was a Doc Rivers away from signing with Orlando.

  9. #34
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    Typical bitter Horry.

    Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

    As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.
    Untrue. Duncan’s peak was not as high. Also when you think of longevity, you need to credit Pop some for that. His minutes started dropping around the age of 28. AND, not every coach would have rested Duncan after that injury in 2000.
    Last edited by Michael Jordan.; 08-29-2021 at 07:33 AM.

  10. #35
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    He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.
    I disagree. He played with Hakeem at his best, but he was on the Lakers when Tim was at his best athletically & physically.

    2004, Horry let Tim down with that bricked 3 in game 5 that led to that Fisher bull that never should have counted (we're still owed a game 7 at the very least). 2005, Tim had a badly sprained ankle going into those playoffs (I remember seeing a picture someone got hold of and posted just before the playoffs and it looked pretty bad), then, he sprained the other good one before the finals against the Sonics in game 6 in Seattle, so despite Horry bailing him out in game 5, Tim wasn't anywhere near 100% going into those finals and had to go up against one of the best defensive front courts in NBA history who dismantled the Lakers the year before and also added another really good front court player in Antonio McDyess for 2005, so I thought Tim did pretty darn good in that series considering both his ankles weren't good at all. I don't know if any other big man in NBA history could have done what Tim did in those finals against that front court with two sprained ankles (I'm sure that limited his post moves in the finals as he was primarly a post player, and one of the best. I remember in the regular season game in SA against Detroit, Tim was moving around very well against them when his ankles were fine. Had a big dunk in that game). 2006, Tim had plantar fasciitis and was still the best player in the playoffs ahead of Dirk, D-wade and Shaq. Spurs got screwed in the series due to Pop's stupidly and the bull fouls in games 3 & 4 of the 4th quarters in Dallas. 2007, Tim was starting to slow down athletically as you'd see the following two years in 2008 as his knee really starting to bother him during that playoff series against the Lakers and got worse in 2009 where he was basically on one leg in the Dallas series), so yeah, Horry did not play with Tim at his best. Sorry, I disagree.

    Since Horry is making outlandish statements, I'm going to make one of my own. If Tim was the same athletically/physically as he was between '98-'03, to say 2011 (Hakeem still had most of his athleticism for about 12-13 seasons before he dropped off), he would have all over Olajuwon's career. As it stands, Tim still had the better career as he was just that smart and able to adjust his game despite his physical deficits during certain playoff runs when he was still in his prime, but also when his knee issues got worse in what would have been the tail end of his prime, so he had to change his overall game earlier than he would have probably liked to. Tim was still young in 2009, but his bad knee was done by then and he couldn't play like his younger self. I am guessing Hakeem was a very similar age in 1994 & 1995 playoffs to what Tim was in 2008/2009, the big difference being Hakeem still had a lot of his athleticism and Tim's knee was shot by then. Give Tim the same athleticism he had in his early days for the same length of time Hakeem had his, you'd see an even bigger between the two's careers.
    Last edited by Ice009; 08-29-2021 at 08:05 AM.

  11. #36
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.
    Nope. That was the plan, all along: play the shooters, and let Dream get his. Rodman apparently didn’t get the memo. They ran this same strategy against the Suns the next decade, and when everyone was dialed in, it worked.

  12. #37
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    I disagree. He played with Hakeem at his best, but he was on the Lakers when Tim was at his best athletically & physically.

    2004, Horry let Tim down with that bricked 3 in game 5 that led to that Fisher bull that never should have counted (we're still owed a game 7 at the very least). 2005, Tim had a badly sprained ankle going into those playoffs (I remember seeing a picture someone got hold of and posted just before the playoffs and it looked pretty bad), then, he sprained the other good one before the finals against the Sonics in game 6 in Seattle, so despite Horry bailing him out in game 5, Tim wasn't anywhere near 100% going into those finals and had to go up against one of the best defensive front courts in NBA history who dismantled the Lakers the year before and also added another really good front court player in Antonio McDyess for 2005, so I thought Tim did pretty darn good in that series considering both his ankles weren't good at all. I don't know if any other big man in NBA history could have done what Tim did in those finals against that front court with two sprained ankles (I'm sure that limited his post moves in the finals as he was primarly a post player, and one of the best. I remember in the regular season game in SA against Detroit, Tim was moving around very well against them when his ankles were fine. Had a big dunk in that game). 2006, Tim had plantar fasciitis and was still the best player in the playoffs ahead of Dirk, D-wade and Shaq. Spurs got screwed in the series due to Pop's stupidly and the bull fouls in games 3 & 4 of the 4th quarters in Dallas. 2007, Tim was starting to slow down athletically as you'd see the following two years in 2008 as his knee really starting to bother him during that playoff series against the Lakers and got worse in 2009 where he was basically on one leg in the Dallas series), so yeah, Horry did not play with Tim at his best. Sorry, I disagree.

    Since Horry is making outlandish statements, I'm going to make one of my own. If Tim was the same athletically/physically as he was between '98-'03, to say 2011 (Hakeem still had most of his athleticism for about 12-13 seasons before he dropped off), he would have all over Olajuwon's career. As it stands, Tim still had the better career as he was just that smart and able to adjust his game despite his physical deficits during certain playoff runs when he was still in his prime, but also when his knee issues got worse in what would have been the tail end of his prime, so he had to change his overall game earlier than he would have probably liked to. Tim was still young in 2009, but his bad knee was done by then and he couldn't play like his younger self. I am guessing Hakeem was a very similar age in 1994 & 1995 playoffs to what Tim was in 2008/2009, the big difference being Hakeem still had a lot of his athleticism and Tim's knee was shot by then. Give Tim the same athleticism he had in his early days for the same length of time Hakeem had his, you'd see an even bigger between the two's careers.
    Again. All lies. Pop saved Duncan from himself in 2000. He cut his minutes around the age of 28 and started playing less minutes. Duncan didn’t do that by himself. And it’s really not outlandish of a statement. Hakeem was more athletic. Top 10 all time in steals and blocks. Won DPOY, MVP, and Finals MVP in the same season. Dropped 31? And 10 on Kareem and Worthy in his second season. If Sampson doesn’t get hurt, they beat Boston in 86.

  13. #38
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    Tim, 5 rings.
    Hakeem, 2 rings.

    /discussion

  14. #39
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    Untrue. Duncan’s peak was not as high. Also when you think of longevity, you need to credit Pop some for that. His minutes started dropping around the age of 28. AND, not every coach would have rested Duncan after that injury in 2000.
    You're right, it was higher. At counting stats without context.

    I'd argue if not for Duncan basically being on one leg the back half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate.

  15. #40
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Tim, 5 rings.
    Hakeem, 2 rings.

    /discussion
    It’s not fair, but the Dream did win when MJ took that semi-retirement . While Timmy beat Shaq/Kobe, Lebron/Wade in their prime. LeBron twice

  16. #41
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    It’s not fair, but the Dream did win when MJ took that semi-retirement . While Timmy beat Shaq/Kobe, Lebron/Wade in their prime. LeBron twice
    You’re talking about Team accomplishments yet fail to bring up also having Parker Kawhi and Ginobli beating that Miami squad. And Ginobli and Parker on that squad beating the 07 Cavs. Manu even had a case for Finals MVP in 05. Better player? Hakeem. Duncan wouldn’t be able to guard him.


    Also, at Age 28. Tim has Parker and Manu. Now, Hakeem’s best teammates at that same age? Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell?

    So, when you bring up rings, you factor in, Duncan has had HOF help most of his career.
    Last edited by Michael Jordan.; 08-29-2021 at 03:22 PM.

  17. #42
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    You're right, it was higher. At counting stats without context.

    I'd argue if not for Duncan basically being on one leg the back half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate.
    So you aren’t counting stats in Peak years? Which years of Tim’s was his peak higher than Hakeem’s?

  18. #43
    Since 1979 Das Texan's Avatar
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    He and Jack need to put together a vaudeville act, and take it on the road. The Bitter es.
    Vernon Maxwell would like to join in on that act, tbh.

  19. #44
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    timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

    hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku
    No way, Olajuwon had a still in his prime Drexler next to him in 1995. No way Tim's 2003 supporting cast was better than Olajuwon's 1995 cast. Manu wasn't really Manu until that game in the 03-04 season where he dragged a Spurs team minus Tim and Tony to 2OT against the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers on national TV. 02-03 season he was nothing close to the player he became the next year.

  20. #45
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    You’re talking about Team accomplishments yet fail to bring up also having Parker Kawhi and Ginobli beating that Miami squad. And Ginobli and Parker on that squad beating the 07 Cavs. Manu even had a case for Finals MVP in 05. Better player? Hakeem. Duncan wouldn’t be able to guard him.


    Also, at Age 28. Tim has Parker and Manu. Now, Hakeem’s best teammates at that same age? Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell?

    So, when you bring up rings, you factor in, Duncan has had HOF help most of his career.
    When Duncan was 28, Ginobili was just starting to ascend to s om, while Parker had yet to.

    Duncan is the only player in NBA history with more than 2 championships without an All-NBA teammate, with 4. In the early 00's, he almost singlehandedly kept a team in transition, with no second option, in championship contention, while ending the Lakers reign . . . despite having two other stars from '96-'98, Olajuwon couldn't even make it to the best of his era, let alone overcome him/them.


    So you aren’t counting stats in Peak years? Which years of Tim’s was his peak higher than Hakeem’s?
    Nah, I'm saying all you have are counting stats without context, aesthetics and nostalgia . . . I have catch all metrics which universally agree that '01-04 Duncan had a greater impact on winning than '92-95 Olajuwon.

  21. #46
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    When Duncan was 28, Ginobili was just starting to ascend to s om, while Parker had yet to.

    Duncan is the only player in NBA history with more than 2 championships without an All-NBA teammate, with 4. In the early 00's, he almost singlehandedly kept a team in transition, with no second option, in championship contention, while ending the Lakers reign . . . despite having two other stars from '96-'98, Olajuwon couldn't even make it to the best of his era, let alone overcome him/them.




    Nah, I'm saying all you have are counting stats without context, aesthetics and nostalgia . . . I have catch all metrics which universally agree that '01-04 Duncan had a greater impact on winning than '92-95 Olajuwon.
    Lol Ginobli was an all star in 05 and Parker in 06. Both of them had damn good playoff runs in 05.

    again, you can’t point to any time period where his peak was better. Because it wasn’t. Rebounding, steals, blocks, scoring. Nothing.
    Last edited by Michael Jordan.; 08-29-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  22. #47
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    Lol Ginobli was an all star in 05 and Parker in 06. Both of them had damn good playoff runs in 05.

    again, you can’t point to any time period where his peak was better. Because it wasn’t. Rebounding, steals, blocks, scoring. Nothing.
    You said 28, which encompassed '04-'05.

    Still relying on counting stats without context in '21.

  23. #48
    Believe. Michael Jordan.'s Avatar
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    You said 28, which encompassed '04-'05.

    Still relying on counting stats without context in '21.
    Was Ginobli not an all star that year? Top 10 in blocks and steals all time does have context. And again, in Hakeem’s peak nobody could really stop him.

  24. #49
    Veteran spurs10's Avatar
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    5>2

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    I think a young Tim Duncan (when he was a lot more agile and had his elite lateral quickness for a guy his size) could have checked Hakeem (not saying he would have shut him down, but I also wonder if Hakeem could have guarded TD any better than TD guarding him). Tim was also on that US select team that pushed the US and he held his own against those All-star big men before being in the NBA. David Robinson (when he and Tim were going against each other in practice) said Tim was already better than him before Tim even played his first game for the Spurs. It's debateable that Hakeem was much better than D-rob let alone TD.

    Anyway, I always used to say, if I were starting a team, I'd pick either TD or Prime Hakeem (I wouldn't pick Jordan as my first pick as I'd always start with a great big man that can play both offense and defense. I also want my big man to be skilled in the low post and be able to run offense through him if needed), having said that, Horry is really annoying me with these ridiculous takes (he's completely disrespecting TD for what reason, I don't know) and putting me off Olajuwon all together. Really, Hakeem only had a few years were he was great and put it all together. He wasn't anywhere near the leader TD was throughout his whole career and also was known to be very selfish earlier on. That is not conducive to winning anything. TD had it all from day one, and like TD21 said in a post above, if not for Tim's issues with his leg in the latter half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate at all IMO. TD basically won finals MVP in the 2013 finals (against a prime Lebron, Wade, Bosh) if not for that final 27 seconds where he was not even on the court. That is on one leg. Tim was also great in the 2014 playoffs (Spurs MVP for the whole playoff run despite Kawhi getting finals MVP ), and then you got the 2015 series against Clippers with an in prime Griffin and DeAndre Jordan at their athletic peaks and Tim almost got the Spurs over the line in that one too (despite his teammates like Kawhi, TP, Manu playing poorly). Hakeem was completely done once his athleticism was gone. Tim was still battling some amazing players when his was done as his basketball IQ was off the charts.

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