ESPN: Spurs' Kawhi Leonard will not return Thursday against Pelicans

[baseline bum]

Actually, they played really well immediately after Pop closed the door -- that was the Cleveland game. They've been playing like es since Kawhi's camp leaked that he was planning to come back.

??? They lost to Denver immediately after Pop said not to expect Kawhi back. They have had one good game against Cleveland and mostly games otherwise since.

[BillMc]

Or Pop may have meant what he said when he said Kawhi wasn't coming back. Like that wasn't him threatening to take the choice out of Kawhi's hands -- that was him actually doing it.

I think this is it.

[spurraider21]

Even if I were to agree with that, it doesn't mean that once you do feel healthy that everyone has to jump to attention and give you what you want. In your scenario, Kawhi put his future over team (rather, he decided to not trust the team even though they are the only ones who could give him his supermax), so why would the team not try to move on with what they have? I firmly believe that if Kawhi had blinked out of existence to start the season, leaving the team with no memory he was ever there, they'd still be the third seed right now. They've been in position to win a ton of games and just collapsed recently. Before Kawhi came back, they were getting those clutch wins against Minny, Toronto and Boston. They'd still have their struggles, especially with their other injuries, but they wouldn't have dropped so many games by being out-executed down the stretch.

i dont get this. if the dude is legit still feeling pain and is uncertain about his ability to hold up (having already tried to come back and play), then of course he should be sitting out. especially given his history. i'm not going to on him for keeping the door open to come back.

[Chinook]

??? They lost to Denver immediately after Pop said not to expect Kawhi back. They have had one good game against Cleveland and mostly games otherwise since.

That was without Green. Games without Green don't count... or some other excuse I have to make to cover my ass

[dbreiden83080]

[Chinook]

i dont get this. if the dude is legit still feeling pain and is uncertain about his ability to hold up (having already tried to come back and play), then of course he should be sitting out. especially given his history. i'm not going to on him for keeping the door open to come back.

You have a habit of diving into the middle of a conversation and then questioning what people say without looking at the context. I'm not talking about Kawhi wanting to come back right now in the real world. I'm talking about the specific scenario where Kawhi is going to be so pissed at Pop for sitting him even though he is currently (in his scenario) completely healthy that he'd give up a supermax and walk. I don't think Leonard would be justified in that scenario. He made the choice he thought was best for himself, and he doesn't have room to be pissed if the Spurs want to play out these final games with what they have instead of waiting on Kawhi.

In real life, as far as we know, Kawhi and the Spurs are straight with each other, and he's sitting because he doesn't think he's ready. A Kawhi who's committed to being a Spur for years to come but was legitimately hurt does not deserve too much flak for missing so many games. But that is not the Kawhi I was talking about in the post you quoted. Had you started your bolding three words earlier, it would have limited the confusion.

[tmtcsc]

The Spurs ing suck right now. They have no chemistry or leadership and have lost all belief in themselves. The team may have not quit physically, but they sure as quit mentally. Will anyone be surprised if,or I should say "when", they lose tonight? no.

Pop is adding to the misery by playing whack, inconsistent lineups. Mills got fat, Green's play has been on the decline for a while, Murray's a knucklehead, TP is a has-been, Manu is on fumes and Pau has been a stiff. The only player with any real talent is Aldridge. Unfortunately, he crumbles when expectations are high and plays better when losses are inevitable and the pressure to win is low.

This season has been one big show. If Kyle Anderson (soon to be UFA) is one of your most consistent producers, you know your team sucks. He's a complimentary player at best.

[Nathan89]

Yes, it does. He's deciding to not play pursuing a contract that only the team could give him. What's the real downside if Kawhi got more hurt? The Spurs wouldn't supermax him? Well guess what they could well not do now...



That was someone Leonard didn't give a about until after Pop called him out. It's not a coincidence that Kawhi's leg magically felt better right after Pop said the team was moving on. As far as anyone other than Skip Bayless has said, Kawhi hasn't actually healed more in the last few months.



I doubt it, especially in the situation you've laid out where Kawhi is holding himself out for a supermax but then also willing to walk away because the Spurs weren't willing to play him exactly when he wanted to. That suggests a Kawhi who just didn't want to play for the Spurs anymore and only wanted to protect his image when he went against Pop's statement about closing the door right after the team had a statement win to back it up. If that Kawhi were to exist, his teammates know who he is and are likely not too keen on having him back. Remember, this is a Leonard who objectively spent a long time away from the team and then had a few games where he seemed to force the "team spirit" angle. One way or another, things aren't all right in the locker room.

We don't know the real downside. Playing hurt isn't advisable though.

Kawhi tried to return earlier in the year. It's ridiculous to claim he doesn't care about the team.

[ElNono]

Hows the weather in Seattle, tbh?

[BillMc]

In the poll I posted a few weeks ago about if the Spurs should give Kawhi the supermax if he doesn't play again this season, I voted yes and defended the position by saying in a worst case scenario you can still trade an injury-prone, supermax player and used the Blake trade as an example.

But, I have to say, I'm beginning to rethink that.

If Kawhi is still injured after a year on a non-surgical injury, how can you trust his health enough to give him the supermax?

If he is not unhealthy to that degree and is simply not playing for whatever reason (mental, agenda, Uncle, etc), how can you give a supermax to that player as well?

The Spurs could tell Kawhi he has to go re-qualify by being All NBA or DPOY or MVP next year, and force him to get on the cour next year. But that also may allow him to be an unrestricted FA in 2019 if he doesn't earn it or does earn it but chooses not to sigh (for whatever reason). Which means, if you're not going to offer the supermax this offseason, you almost certainly have to trade him, and trade him sadly at his lowest value with the least leverage.

There are really very few "good" scenarios here, unless miraculously Kawhi makes it back this year, looks great, seems onboard with the team, and all parties are comfortable giving him that giant contract. But that looks less likely each day.

[Chinook]

If you're asking me what I actually believe here, I do think there's legit fire behind this smoke. The leak about Kawhi coming back and Kawhi's own behavior thenceforth seems like a direct response to Pop's statements -- perhaps even a rebuttal of them. I don't think Pop has appreciated how Kawhi's health seems to be getting leaked to reporters rather than stated by the team. When Salters' report came out, Pop seemed skeptical or even defiant. I think that could have been frustration or annoyance about Kawhi's camp continuing to try to control the narrative without going through the team.

It seems to me that Pop made this decision over Leonard and just said the stuff about it being Kawhi's camp as a cover. Whether that would mean the team is attempt to trade Kawhi or not offer the full supermax is still too murky for me to conjecture much. But I certainly buy the narrative that Kawhi and the team are perfectly fine with each other and that everyone in the locker room likes him and wants him back a lot less than I used to. As I've been saying for a couple of months, I think chemistry has been shot to since Kawhi initially returned. Even if it's not because of anything to do with Leonard's personality, the only way for the team to even make the playoffs at this point is to get the players in sync again. I don't think Pop is too happy that Leonard's camp is seemingly picking this moment to change their stance. A team with a committed Kawhi likely gets to the playoffs. A committed team without Kawhi likely gets there too. A team stuck in this limbo is not going to make it.

[daslicer]

In the poll I posted a few weeks ago about if the Spurs should give Kawhi the supermax if he doesn't play again this season, I voted yes and defended the position by saying in a worst case scenario you can still trade an injury-prone, supermax player and used the Blake trade as an example.

But, I have to say, I'm beginning to rethink that.

If Kawhi is still injured after a year on a non-surgical injury, how can you trust his health enough to give him the supermax?

If he is not unhealthy to that degree and is simply not playing for whatever reason (mental, agenda, Uncle, etc), how can you give a supermax to that player as well?

The Spurs could tell Kawhi he has to go re-qualify by being All NBA or DPOY or MVP next year, and force him to get on the cour next year. But that also may allow him to be an unrestricted FA in 2019 if he doesn't earn it or does earn it but chooses not to sigh (for whatever reason). Which means, if you're not going to offer the supermax this offseason, you almost certainly have to trade him, and trade him sadly at his lowest value with the least leverage.

There is really very few "good" scenarios here, unless miraculously Kawhi makes it back this year, looks great, seems onboard with the team, and all parties are comfortable giving him that giant contract. But that looks less likely each day.

He was going to always be an unrestricted FA in 2019. The only time a player is restricted FA is when they are coming of their rookie deal. Kawhi was a restricted FA in 2015 when he signed his max deal. Now he will no longer be a restricted FA. Anyways the Spurs should not give him the super max based on what happened this year. If he's good enough he will qualify for it again next year. All he has to do is make it an all-nba team. If he can't do that then we know he's heading for a Derick Rose type of decline

[rasuo214]

I thought Kawhi was cleared a long time ago.

[Chinook]

We don't know the real downside. Playing hurt isn't advisable though.

This gets to the point that it's illogical really quickly. Like you don't know the real downside to walking out your front door, because something could happen. There isn't a reasonable expectation that he would get critically reinjured. That's why the medical staff(s) have cleared him. Pain does not mean injury is inevitable, and if he were to get hurt, it would likely be for a few months, ending his season but leaving him healthy for next year. That's about as good as it has turned out anyway.

As far as playing hurt being a bad idea, players in all sports play hurt all the time. There's no rule that if you're hurt, you sit out. Obviously, that's not a Spurs rule given the pain Tim when through and even Green playing with his injuries all season. I'm not saying that Kawhi should have gone out there no matter what. But I am saying pain is extremely subjective, and when this many doctors clear you, it stops being something you can blame the team for. You created a scenario where Kawhi is magically pain-free enough to play now with Pop axing it. That Kawhi wasn't healthy enough a week ago but would be now even though no doctors could explain why is evidence for why the team could want to close the book on any return this season.

Kawhi tried to return earlier in the year. It's ridiculous to claim he doesn't care about the team.

Kawhi was apparently resentful that he was "made" to come back in December, according to some report earlier that I don't remember. He only did so after former players told him he wasn't going to be pain-free until he played on it a little. That, combined with the scenario you laid out certainly suggests Kawhi is already distanced from the team and that he's looking out for himself (both in terms of sitting out and coming back). They suggest a Kawhi from whom a supermax deal is worth sitting out to protect but also worth abandoning just because the team would rather tank or try to build chemistry with their healthy guys rather than continue to wait on his pain tolerance. That's a Kawhi would doesn't really care about the team, not in any way that matters.

[spurs10]

In the poll I posted a few weeks ago about if the Spurs should give Kawhi the supermax if he doesn't play again this season, I voted yes and defended the position by saying in a worst case scenario you can still trade an injury-prone, supermax player and used the Blake trade as an example.

But, I have to say, I'm beginning to rethink that.

If Kawhi is still injured after a year on a non-surgical injury, how can you trust his health enough to give him the supermax?

If he is not unhealthy to that degree and is simply not playing for whatever reason (mental, agenda, Uncle, etc), how can you give a supermax to that player as well?

The Spurs could tell Kawhi he has to go re-qualify by being All NBA or DPOY or MVP next year, and force him to get on the cour next year. But that also may allow him to be an unrestricted FA in 2019 if he doesn't earn it or does earn it but chooses not to sigh (for whatever reason). Which means, if you're not going to offer the supermax this offseason, you almost certainly have to trade him, and trade him sadly at his lowest value with the least leverage.

There are really very few "good" scenarios here, unless miraculously Kawhi makes it back this year, looks great, seems onboard with the team, and all parties are comfortable giving him that giant contract. But that looks less likely each day.

Another scenario is he keeps working with team and continues to improve, but they decide it’s not worth it to bring him back if he’s not quite 100%. All parties involve might decide to focus on next season.

[Chinook]

He was going to always be an unrestricted FA in 2019.

That's not true, especially not the way BillMc meant it. He meant that if the team doesn't extend Kawhi, he would become a free agent next summer. That is true. Before this, it was assumed he'd get a DPE deal and would not be a free agent for five more years. If the Spurs hold off on the DPE to incentivize Kawhi performing at a high level, they risk him entering true free agency without that buffer year to work on a new deal.

[Slippy]

I thought Kawhi was cleared a long time ago.

yap that's what espn is reporting . its upto Kawhis medical team .. this is getting beyond a joke.

http://kwese.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...leans-pelicans

[tholdren]

Hope they trade kl gasol and patty for luke kennard, jimmer and adam morrison.

[Slippy]

Forget all the dates you been given about Kawhi... once his doctors clear him spurs POP will re-evaluate . Its a process. We get all excited bout a late march return. then pop will shut him down.

[spurraider21]

You have a habit of diving into the middle of a conversation and then questioning what people say without looking at the context. I'm not talking about Kawhi wanting to come back right now in the real world. I'm talking about the specific scenario where Kawhi is going to be so pissed at Pop for sitting him even though he is currently (in his scenario) completely healthy that he'd give up a supermax and walk. I don't think Leonard would be justified in that scenario. He made the choice he thought was best for himself, and he doesn't have room to be pissed if the Spurs want to play out these final games with what they have instead of waiting on Kawhi.

In real life, as far as we know, Kawhi and the Spurs are straight with each other, and he's sitting because he doesn't think he's ready. A Kawhi who's committed to being a Spur for years to come but was legitimately hurt does not deserve too much flak for missing so many games. But that is not the Kawhi I was talking about in the post you quoted. Had you started your bolding three words earlier, it would have limited the confusion.

i dont understand this at all. is that even a contemplated possibility?

and im not buying the "out of context stuff." sure, you said "in your scenario" but nathan's scenario was that kawhi is legitimately hurt and is therefore choosing not to play

[BillMc]

That's not true, especially not the way BillMc meant it. He meant that if the team doesn't extend Kawhi, he would become a free agent next summer. That is true. Before this, it was assumed he'd get a DPE deal and would not be a free agent for five more years. If the Spurs hold off on the DPE to incentivize Kawhi performing at a high level, they risk him entering true free agency without that buffer year to work on a new deal.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Chinook, thanks for making that more clear. As Steve Martin once said "Some people have a way with words. Some people, oh, not have way." I'm in the latter camp sometimes.

[daslicer]

That's not true, especially not the way BillMc meant it. He meant that if the team doesn't extend Kawhi, he would become a free agent next summer. That is true. Before this, it was assumed he'd get a DPE deal and would not be a free agent for five more years. If the Spurs hold off on the DPE to incentivize Kawhi performing at a high level, they risk him entering true free agency without that buffer year to work on a new deal.

Yes I understand this scenario. I should have been more clear in my post and said without an extension he was always going to be an unrestricted FA.

[Slippy]

I thought Kawhi was cleared a long time ago.

just to clarify this tweet/post . Spurs have cleared him . its upto Kawha doctors sill, that's the latest update.

[Chinook]

i dont understand this at all. is that even a contemplated possibility?

and im not buying the "out of context stuff." sure, you said "in your scenario" but nathan's scenario was that kawhi is legitimately hurt and is therefore choosing not to play

No, in his scenario, Kawhi is healthy now, and Pop is sitting him anyway. That is why Leonard walks .

Original quote:

Pop better not have made this decision. If Kawhi wants to play and your doctors cleared him months ago then he should play. I'd love to see the meltdown after Kawhi leaves when he says "I really didn't like that Pop didn't let me play after I got healthy".

[SAGirl]

Hmm. So Pop has been tanking after all. All of that post up Gasol, rest Aldridge for a bad knee... He can't sit Aldridge the rest of the season, Silver has been cracking down on real tankers like Chicago formerly sitting down Lopez and Holiday. So Pop has stealthily gone about it, resting LMA often but not for the season, while also trying to boost the value through playing time opportunities to some players already in the roster.

Pop had already said Kiwi was unlikely to make it back in time. They have their eye set on the draft. Could be a game changer there.