So who won tonight's debate....?

[whottt]

Israel will never be attacked directly with nukes. I don't think it's plausible to think that a "dirty" bomb will ever be set off in Tel Aviv because they would hold the Iranians responsible. Israel has two problems: the Palestinian birthrate and suicide bombers strapping themselves with TNT.

I think you're wrong. I don't think you realize what they teach some of these guys in Islamic Schools...it depends entirely on who the leadership is.

Iran's hostility towards Israel is not becuase they want the land.

The mere presence of Israel undermines the Iranian Govt. They have every reason in the world to want to destroy Israel.

[bonnington]

Exactly, Arabs (or Druze or other minority groups) in Israel are granted full citizenship, but are considered of Arab or in these times of palestinian nationality, since the Israeli nationality is intrinsically Jewish.

And, despite the fact that I speak Spanish, I understood what Whoot meant.

That's the reason I asked if he denied the Shoa, because nothing the Iranian are doing can be compared by the way my family died.

I really think that the Iranians could actually be shocked by the perversion of the Nazis.

Ok no for my question, what does this have to do with my statement that the holocaust would not shock the Iranian leadership? In a region of the world where Israel has twice been attacked on all sides and the Iranians have 30 years now of being sworn to the destruction of Israel?

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Ok, check out my post quoted above of yours.

[sook]

Ok no for my question, what does this have to do with my statement that the holocaust would not shock the Iranian leadership? In a region of the world where Israel has twice been attacked on all sides and the Iranians have 30 years now of being sworn to the destruction of Israel?

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Dude your a ing moron. Someone that has lived there is telling you that don't bring the holocost into this b.c you don't truly understand how bad it was, that his family died in it. If you seriously doubt what someone that has lived there is saying, you should identify with how ignorant you sound

[Findog]

I think you're wrong. I don't think you realize what they teach some of these guys in Islamic Schools...it depends entirely on who the leadership is.

Iran's hostility towards Israel is not becuase they want the land.

The mere presence of Israel undermines the Iranian Govt. They have every reason in the world to want to destroy Israel.

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political en y because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel. Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction. Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital. The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.

[whottt]

Ok, check out my post quoted above of yours.

I never denied the holocaust, and I have no idea where you got that from.


The guy who is the President of the country I am saying would not be shocked by the holocaust is the holocaust denier...I am attacking this guy, you are attacking me for attacking and calling me a holocaust denier in the process.


I do not understand your POV, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

[whottt]

Dude your a ing moron. Someone that has lived there is telling you that don't bring the holocost into this b.c you don't truly understand how bad it was,

Elie Weisel understands how bad it was, he went through it...and he agrees with me.


So you.


And neither you, nor he, are going to tell me what I can and cannot talk about.

And if you don't like it...you can put me on ignore.

that his family died in it.

I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

[Shastafarian]

I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

He doesn't. You're just an idiot and can't understand what he's trying to say.

[whottt]

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political en y because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

I don't know...Europe expected Israel to get wiped off the map in 1947, and the Israelis thought otherwise.

The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel.

I agree.

Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction.

False...the reformers started pushing too hard for reform, and the Iranian Govt had to become more hardline to stay in power. That's why they got more hardline. Plus, there is absolutely no doubt the US was formenting unrest in Iran from Iraq.

Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital.

It's not as cosmopolitian as it used to be.

The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.

If you think Asshole was really elected by the popular vote you are on crack. When governments become more brutal towards their own people(which is what has happened), it's because they are having more difficulty staying in power, not because people are wanting them to become more brutal because of fear of an outside threat.

Bush and Cheney didn't become more brutal towards Americsns...the Iranian Govt has become more brutal towards Iranians.

Asshole was made President to teach the Iranian people a lesson...not because the Iranian people were afraid of us.

[whottt]

He doesn't. You're just an idiot and can't understand what he's trying to say.

Right...I have no ing clue what he is trying to say...what I do know is that he is defending a holocaust denier and asking me if I am one in the process...when I had family in that ing war.

Idiot.

So he can take his opinion and stick it up his goddamn ing ass...and so can you.

That's the reason I asked if he denied the Shoa

[Shastafarian]

Right...I have no ing clue what he is trying to say...what I do know is that he is defending a holocaust denier and asking me if I am one in the process...when I had family in that ing war.

Nope, still wrong. You act as if you are the only one who had family in that war. You act as if you are all knowing on the matter of Israel. Please, tell me how you came upon such knowledge.

[Shastafarian]

From my understanding he is asking how you can trivialize the holocaust by saying it wouldn't shock Iranians. There. Happy?

[whottt]

Nope, still wrong. You act as if you are the only one who had family in that war. You act as if you are all knowing on the matter of Israel. Please, tell me how you came upon such knowledge.

Simple:

#1. I'm an anthropologist and I studied a lot of world history when it was my minor. And I have spent a lot of time studying this particular issu although it was never my primary focus of study. I am currently working on my PHD.

#2. My ex-wife was Jewish, and a citizen of both Israel and the US.


#3. Her Grandmother who born in Germany, who I met many times and lived in Israel full time prior to her death, was an actual child Holocaust survivor.

#4. All 4 of my Grandparents were born in Europe and immigrated to America as children prior to WWI.(3 from Germany 1 from England)My German born Grandfather fought in Europe in WWII.


As for the Muslim perspective and the way Shias and Sunnis see each other:

#5. I also dated a girl who was from Pakistan and is of Saudi descent, and man does she have some stories from the Sunni Muslim(she's an atheist now) side of things. She has a lot of strories to tell...being raped as 4 year old and told it was her fault, and her dad didn't even fire the guy who raped her. She was ins utionalized(for wanting her own career) for disobeying her parents..her Dad and brothers beat the out of her(while her mother held her down). Her husband took her child from her and divorced her and she hasn't seen him in 17 or so years.

And her family is liberal by Pakistani standards...after all, they didn't kill her for dating me, they just disowned her.


And you should hear the stories she tells about the Muslims in this country...the moderate ones, she can't stand 90% of them because they talk about this country and celebrate it's tragedies, and they only do business with other Muslims. She says they are the most racist and bigoted people on Earth. And she has no ing idea why they want to live here when they hate this country so much.



#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries.


#7,. I'm pretty sure I'm also the only one in this thread that's read the Torah, the Bible and Quran from cover to cover. ...I bet I'm the only one that's read the Bible from cover to cover.

#8. I have had this sort of argument in this forum dozens of times over the past 4 years, and every time I learn something new.

Anything else?

[Findog]

#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries

One dictatorship giving way to another, just like Cuba. Did your friend approve of the Shah's regime?

[whottt]

Bonnnington, here's Nobel Peace Prize Winner, Author and Holocaust Suvivor Elie Weisel with his thoughts on Asshole.

You might be familiar with him since his novel on the Holocaust, Night, was first published in Argentina:





While I won't claim he agrees with me...he damn sure doesn't agree with you either.

[whottt]

One dictatorship giving way to another, just like Cuba. Did your friend approve of the Shah's regime?

He doesn't think the Shah was a dictator to anyone who wasn't a radical Islamic asshole trying to overthrow him. He thinks the Shah was a quite benevolent ruler, who very much wanted to establish a Democracy but couldn't due to the Soviet backed Islamicist movement. He pretty much thinks the country was the Jewel of the Mid-east along with Lebanon during that time. He says it was very Westernized and modern under the Shah. The whole ME was back then. He swears up and down that there was nothing oppresssive about the Shah's rule to the average Iranian.

[sook]

Simple:



#6. One of my best friends growing up was a Christian Iranian immigrant whose family fled Iran during the Islamic Revolution. He makes me look like a lefty. He and his family consider the overthrow of the Shah the worst thing that ever happened to Iran. And they can't wait for the day this abomination of a Govt is overthrown. They feel Iran was set back several centuries.



Anything else?

I'm iranian and at least you have one thing right.

BTW The CIA were the ones that overthrew the Shah, its true. My dad always says it too, iran was a very modern country and it has gone backwards

[whottt]

I'm iranian and at least you have one thing right.

BTW The CIA were the ones that overthrew the Shah, its true. My dad always says it too, iran was a very modern country and it has gone backwards

Why in the would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

[sook]

.

[sook]

Why in the would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/2...the_cias_first
I meant the democratic gov. that was there before the shah, srry.

We did it to stop a major oil deal between the m and the ussr.


Pretty stupid though right? We toppled the gov to instate a dictatorship.

[Findog]

Why in the would the CIA overthrow the Shah? They're the ones that put him back in power in the first place.

I don't believe the CIA overthrew the Shah, but it's also true that the Shah had to go to great lengths to demonstrate to his own people that he wasn't a Western puppet.

[whottt]

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/2...the_cias_first
I meant the democratic gov. that was there before the shah, srry.

We did it to stop a major oil deal between the m and the ussr.


Pretty stupid though right? We toppled the gov to instate a dictatorship.

IF the Shah was a dictator then why did he allow the Democratic Elections in the first place?

He wasn't a dictator. He continually tried to ins ute Democracy there and the problem was that when he attempted it the Soviets were going to annex Iran.


It's was a choice of our weed or the Soviets.

And BTW, that was a British plan to put the Shah back in power. After all...they put him and his father in power in the first place.


Bottom line and what I continually tell all the good liberals on this forum as they are lecturing me on how evil we are...

The Mid-Easterners are not savages incapable of grasping Democracy, indeed, 50 years ago many of the countries in the ME were Cons utional Monarchies...prior to WWI the Ottoman Empire was one of the most sophisticated regions of the World for centuries, most of that more advanced than the West...over 3000 years ago in what is now called Iraq the first form of Democracy was invented.

Savages indeed.


No, the problem with the ME is that were caught first laid out by the colonial era of Europe, and then were caught up in the middle of every major war of the 20th century...Wars America was drug into as Europe fought over it's mineral wealth. WWI, WWII, and then our proxy war with the Russians, the Cold War.


You look at any corner of the globe right now with a corrupt government and that is a humanitarian hole, and you will see former European Colony. Whethere you are in Asia, or the ME, or Africa, or even South America.


That Saudi rule was put in place by the British, the Palestinians and Israel were promised the same piece of land by the British...and the Arabs were expected to finish off what Hitler had started.

The British and the French hated the Jews every bit as much as the Germans did...that's why Hitler was allowed to become powerful in the first place...it wasn't until Hiltler started coming for their countries that they began to have problems with him.

Those Jews in Israel were never expected to survive the formation of Israel...they were supposed to be slaughtered and the British and the French were going to chalk it up to those savage Arabs being savage Arabs.

Things got ed up when the Jews weren't exterminated...then came the coldwar and every attempt at Democracy was countered with Soviet interference...the Baathists are a good example of this.


So now that we over there, trying to fix what Europe broke...I'd just like one time to see a Mid-Eastern leader separate us from Europe when they call us the West...


Our legacy is being the first to rise up against Colonial England...our Legacy is post WWII Europe and Japan....it is not the same as the European Legacy...we do not believe in the aristocrat/peasantry system...that is Europes system...that is still Europes system. That is the UN system...


That is what Obama and the UN and Europe will represent. You guys remember that when casting your votes...


They will never fix anything in the ME...they'll just say their savages that brought this all upon themselves. And that region of the world is going to continue to backslide into the medieval era...it is going to be produce an inordinate amount of angry pissed off human castoffs, and those governments will continue to direct that anger outward. Away from themselves...


This is why Iraq has to be successful...I don't give a how wrong we were going in...we damn sure better be right coming out. The alternative is Afghanistan part 2...with Petro Dollars...and nukes.

[Kamnik]

I watched the debate....

I can say 1 thing for sure. If McCain gets elected the view of America in the world will stay the same. He will not be much diferent as Bush. (some of the things he said were absurds)

Obama would restore the reputation of USA in the world for sure. And that would also make America safer because the religious fanatics dont get enough "fuel" through hate towards the states from the people. (u get my point; horrible sentence )

McCain = 80% Bush
Obama = 80% Clinton


But even if McCain is elected he cant probably be as horrible as Bush was.

[bonnington]

Israel will not survive in its current form as a political en y because of the Arab birth rate. That's inevitable. Israel won't be around in its current form 100 years from now, regardless if they forge a comprehensive peace settlement with the Arab world or not. That doesn't mean there will be a second holocaust and no jews living in the land we currently call Israel. It just means that you won't have the current political structure in place now. So in a sense, the political destruction of Israel is going to happen, regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do. The Iranians and the entire Arab world understands this. It's why they don't have to lob nukes at Israel.

The current leadership in Iran could not be more hostile to Israel. Furthermore, Iran is a very young country ruled by very old hardliners left over from 1979. Every time we rattle sabers and demonize Iran, we make it that much harder for the democracy reform movement in Iran to gain traction. Most of the hardline Islamic ethos resides in the rural countryside, not Tehran. Tehran is fairly cosmopolitan and modern for an Arab capital. The same dynamic applies here: when we felt threatened by al-Q, as a nation we elected martial hardliners in the form of Bush and Cheney, even though their views are anathema to millions of Americans. Same dynamic in Iran, they feel like only the hardliners can protect them.

I understand what you say, but birthrate alone won't do it, more if there is a peace agreement.

I am not so sure that the Arabs from Israel would be a majority in Israel in the next 100 years .

I would like to see some serious studies about what you say.

I never denied the holocaust, and I have no idea where you got that from.


The guy who is the President of the country I am saying would not be shocked by the holocaust is the holocaust denier...I am attacking this guy, you are attacking me for attacking and calling me a holocaust denier in the process.


I do not understand your POV, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

Look Whottt, By saying that Iran president wouldn't be "shocked" by anything Hitler did, you were comparing Iran with the Nazi Germany.

Since the Iran regime is not like the Nazi regime, then I was wondering if you were fully aware of what the Shoa actually was............or if you were one of those Holocaust deniers, to whom the Holocaust was just a hard and tight political regime.

I think is pretty clear. Since you are not an Holocaust denier, then you should learn more about it before comparing the perversion of the Nazis with any other dictatorship, because it is a way of dismiss the importance of the holocaust.

I am not attacking you, I am trying you to understand that the words the politicians say, are easy words, but are not true words.

Do not get caught on that easiness.

Elie Weisel understands how bad it was, he went through it...and he agrees with me.


So you.


And neither you, nor he, are going to tell me what I can and cannot talk about.

And if you don't like it...you can put me on ignore.






I am sorry his family died in the holocaust...but I have literally no idea why in the he thinks I am a holocaust denier.

And I'm not going to defend myself from that accusation either...I suggest he learn to read English better.

Elie Wiesel is not the only survivor out there, and I don't agree with his political view.

Iran can go to the war to Israel, they even can put a "dirty" bomb in Israel and kill a lot ( or worse) of my people, but there is no way Israel can successfully destroy Iran's Nuclear program, and there is no way the US can go and do that without destroying Iran completely.

The only way is peace between Israel and the Arabs countries and the isolation of Iran.

That's the only way.

And is not a matter of English, is a matter of logic.

You are using the holocaust in a cheap way, so you are not educated on the holocaust or are denier, it's rather simple.

[ElNono]

You look at any corner of the globe right now with a corrupt government and that is a humanitarian hole, and you will see former European Colony. Whethere you are in Asia, or the ME, or Africa, or even South America.

Maybe the fact that Europe discovered America has something to do with that?

[AFBlue]

I watched the debate....

I can say 1 thing for sure. If McCain gets elected the view of America in the world will stay the same. He will not be much diferent as Bush. (some of the things he said were absurds)

Obama would restore the reputation of USA in the world for sure. And that would also make America safer because the religious fanatics dont get enough "fuel" through hate towards the states from the people. (u get my point; horrible sentence )

McCain = 80% Bush
Obama = 80% Clinton


But even if McCain is elected he cant probably be as horrible as Bush was.

Thanks for the international perspective...