General Trades Discussion

[mountainballer]

ok, i added a second sheet on the link. at the bottom of the page look at 'sample attempt 1'

it has a projected 2010 roster.
it's got:
-ariza as starting 3. i'm assuming we sign him at MLE or some kinda decent contract that lakers can't match.
-bowen stays
-finley opts in
-mahinmi starts

-oberto is gone(trade,buy out?)
-vaughn and udoka are not resigned
-marcus williams gets bounced between the toros and some playing time
-we bring back hairston and mensah-bonsu
-sign gooden to a deal similar to mason's from last summer
-kurt thomas is the new kevin willis

i don't expect this to actually happen, it looks like the salaries go over the tax threshold, but it's an example of how to get things to add up rosterwise and capwise. i brought the 'rookies' williams, hairston, mensah bonsu. all had shown promise and they also mean small contracts.

hopefully we can get some creative lineups that improve the 3 and 5 spots while getting the payroll somewhere in the FO style.

ask yourself do you want gooden back for how much? how many minutes shoulld he play? is there another 4 floating around that we can sign? or someone we can trade for? somebody try the camby trade and how many roster spots we have to fill to get it going. or try signing splitter to a GIGANTIC deal that will compensate him directly(not in violation of the nba rules) for the buying out of his european deal)

sorry, but your big plan (and sheet) shows some mistakes. you can't sign a player like Ariza for the MLE AND sign Gooden for 3 million.
you also can't sign players like Hairston, Williams or Bonsu for more than minimum (or one of them for BAE), when you already have spent your MLE.
(and btw. all salary numbers you used in your scenario sheet are wrong. you better study this: http://www.shamsports.com/content/pa...ries/spurs.jsp)

and finally: I agree that getting Ariza would be pretty nice, BUT why should he ever leave the Lakers for the MLE?? Lakers will pay their starting SF at least this kind of money and could top any MLE offer by using bird rights. even some lux tax $ don't matter for a team like the Lakers, especially when they will try to keep their championship core together. and Ariza himself will not want to leave. he is a UCLA guy and he was totally happy when he was traded to LA. he will be the starting SF on a contender team for several more years, quite a more attractive option than what the Spurs could offer. so forget about Ariza. (if the Spurs in fact plan to spend the whole MLE on a wing, Josh Childress might be a more realistic option. in the current situation, they need to re sign Bibby, Williams and Pachulia and Joe Johnson 2010, it's unlikely that the Hawks would match a MLE bid)

[mountainballer]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...omariza-090613

One free agent supposedly being targeted by the Pistons is Chicago Bulls guard Ben Gordon, a scenario that would make even more sense if the rumors about their interest in trading Richard Hamilton are true.

hmm, Rip has one more year at 11.6 million. he is 31 and should have enough left in his tank. in terms of scoring and creating ability he would fill a need. his defense is also better than what all Spurs wings (still except Bruce) were able to provide in the last season, even if he isn't able to shut down the big SFs.
Spurs only have a chance if they offer the best salary dump scenario possible. (which could of course be outbid by some other teams though)
this would be: Fab+Bruce+RM+Ian for Rip+Amir Johnson.
if the Pistons waive Fab and Bruce, they increase their cap space for about 7 million to estimated 26 million. then they could go for 2 top players if they wanted, (like Gordon plus Odom or Boozer), still re sign McDyess and sign their #15 pick.

EDIT: damn, forget it. I just found out that Hamilton has signed a 3 years extension 2008 for 34 million. 11.3 million per, that's to much IMO. no wonder why the Pistons try to dump this contract.

[venitian navigator]

The first point is to decide if we have to stick with the 2010 plan or, at least, with the chance to sign Splitter in that year...
If they stick with the plan, then next season will be a tanking - rebuilding one...and the conversations of trading Manu can begin.
But I doubt that the F.O. has come to the resolution of wasting one of the last years when the big three and will decide to stay with Manu AND try this year to give them the best supporting cast in years...
And, all things considered, maybe that could be the best choice for some reasons...
The first one is that Splitter is not and never will be a sure thing.
He could be just a peace of the puzzle (a good one, indeed) but not a player comparable to Tim...and, also, we still can't know what kind of decisions he will ever take (stay in Europe or coming).
The second one is that we've always seen how players are not so enticed to come to S.A. (see Kidd, O'Neal...) so we don't have so many weapons to convince them to come also if we have the money...and in 2010 we're gonna compete with a lot of teams with cap space.
Third thing is that we have NOW the chances to be a player in the market FROM NOW TILL THIS FEBRUARY...these chances are colled EXPIRING CONTRACTS

Imho next season have to be a necessary rebouilding one, but in the Celtics way : for winning as soon as possible...maybe not the some year (for obvious chemistry reasons) but the two years after.
I hope that, after all the success we had, Holt we'll not be so against paiyng the luxury tax for the last years that the big three will be available at their best.

So imho the time to move is now!

And the first move have to be a trade of our "gonna be cut" players like are Bowen and Oberto for the best player available for the package.
This have to come before or during the draft...'cause after 1 july the contracts of Bowen and Oberto will became fully guaranteed !

So, ther's a player we could need and that a team could give us ?
We need, most of all, two things : a) a second big; b) a strong wing player.

Who could be available for that price (I mean Bowen, Oberto, maybe with another expiring like Mason or Thomas or Bonner and one or more second choices) ?

Some names : G/SF : Maggette; Jackson; Jefferson; Miller;

Pf/C : Camby; Kaman; Murphy.

After that, we could decide where to spend the MLE and, in case, the LLE.
The needs are the some, but we'll decide after the choice written before...so a g/sf or a Pf/C depending on what we've already obtained.

Some names with the MLE :
Free agent G/SF :Moon; Ariza;
Free agent pf/C : Odom; Marion; Wallace; MC Dyess; Gortat; Gooden.

Some names possibly available with the LLE :

G/SF : M. Daniels; R. Davis

PF/C : Nesterovic

Then, last thing to do, we'll wait till the deadline and try to sell our remaining expiring contracts for the best player available...

[Mel_13]

I hope that, after all the success we had, Holt we'll not be so against paiyng the luxury tax for the last years that the big three will be available at their best.


And the first move have to be a trade of our "gonna be cut" players like are Bowen and Oberto for the best player available for the package.


After that, we could decide where to spend the MLE and, in case, the LLE.

Even if the Spurs go over the tax line, they are not going to go way over it.

Once you trade Oberto and Bowen, you can't use the MLE (and in your example, the LLE as well) without adding a ton of money to payroll. In your example, if the Spurs trade Oberto and Bowen and then use the MLE and the LLE, they will exceed the tax line by 7-10M. Then add the dollar for dollar tax of 7-10M and the loss of the tax distribution of the 2-3M. You have now added 16-23M to the overall payroll.

That's not going to happen.

You can cut Oberto and Bowen to position the Spurs to use the full MLE or you can trade them for the best salary dump player available. But you can't trade them and then use the MLE.

[venitian navigator]

Even if the Spurs go over the tax line, they are not going to go way over it.

Once you trade Oberto and Bowen, you can't use the MLE (and in your example, the LLE as well) without adding a ton of money to payroll. In your example, if the Spurs trade Oberto and Bowen and then use the MLE and the LLE, they will exceed the tax line by 7-10M. Then add the dollar for dollar tax of 7-10M and the loss of the tax distribution of the 2-3M. You have now added 16-23M to the overall payroll.

That's not going to happen.

You can cut Oberto and Bowen to position the Spurs to use the full MLE or you can trade them for the best salary dump player available. But you can't trade them and then use the MLE.

Well, in this case no way we can build anything near a championship team...in your example we stay practically with the some team...considering that we should give the MLE to Gooden (that we had last year) or a player older than him (Wallace; Mc Dyess...)...and nobody new at the wings except, maybe, our nbdl'rs (M. Willliams; Hairston).
If you're right...no way, imho, we'll be contenders again (maybe just if Mahinmi is the second coming of Russell).
The old legs of Gino and Timmy really need somebody valuable to give them some rest...without compromising the games!

[Mel_13]

Well, in this case no way we can build anything near a championship team...in your example we stay practically with the some team...considering that we should give the MLE to Gooden (that we had last year) or a player older than him (Wallace; Mc Dyess...)...and nobody new at the wings except, maybe, our nbdl'rs (M. Willliams; Hairston).
If you're right...no way, imho, we'll be contenders again (maybe just if Mahinmi is the second coming of Russell).
The old legs of Gino and Timmy really need somebody valuable to give them some rest...without compromising the games!

And this is the reality that Spurs fans have to accept. The Spurs have enjoyed an historic run of success. Since the merger only three other teams can rival them, the Showtime Lakers, the Jordan Bulls, and the Bird/McHale Celtics.

All of those eras ended and those franchises dropped from the ranks of championship contenders. The Bulls have not yet returned, the Celtics were mostly irrelevant for 15 years, and the Lakers went five years without winning a playoff series. It is the natural order of things.

Are the Duncan Spurs at the end or do they have one more run in them? I think it is far more likely that they are at the end, but as fans we hope for the best.

In any event, the Spurs are not going to add 15-20M to the payroll to delay the inevitable.

[loveforthegame]

And this is the reality that Spurs fans have to accept.

Exactly.

Too many are expecting a trade to happen that will bring in that small forward or big man help. We have, what, 4 roster spots open with Vaughn, Udoka, Williams, and Gooden gone?

I expect the same team back but a few adjustments. 2 free agent signings to replace Gooden and Udoka. And then one of the Toro's players and one of this years draft picks replacing Vaughn and Williams.

[venitian navigator]

And this is the reality that Spurs fans have to accept. The Spurs have enjoyed an historic run of success. Since the merger only three other teams can rival them, the Showtime Lakers, the Jordan Bulls, and the Bird/McHale Celtics.

All of those eras ended and those franchises dropped from the ranks of championship contenders. The Bulls have not yet returned, the Celtics were mostly irrelevant for 15 years, and the Lakers went five years without winning a playoff series. It is the natural order of things.

Are the Duncan Spurs at the end or do they have one more run in them? I think it is far more likely that they are at the end, but as fans we hope for the best.

In any event, the Spurs are not going to add 15-20M to the payroll to delay the inevitable.

The point is, for the moment, not inevitable...
Like you said, franchises wait for years just to have the chance to be real contenders.
For a team like S.A. not being contenders for many, many years would be unbearable...
Like Holt said, the team is in good financial shape...and that's normal since we've been in the play offs for a lot of years consecutively...making so a lot more money than teams out of play offs.
Well, this money, IMHO, can be used for a two/three year run at a le that is still posible with the current core of the big three plus some other valuable guys...we don't have to break the bank permanently, but for a limitae space of time...and the we can start re-building.
I mean, in conclusion, that an investment of 10/20 millions in salary + lux tax can be worth in case with this we have 10/20 more playoffs games...and, first of al, a chance to still be real contenders for 2/three years.

[MajorMike]

Kaman for expiring contracts of Bowen, Bonner and Fab.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade...radeid=5116887

[ffadicted]

Kaman for expiring contracts of Bowen, Bonner and Fab.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade...radeid=5116887

Clippers would prob do it to free a roster spot for Griffin, but that contract of his isn't too good looking for the Spurs

[Mel_13]

The point is, for the moment, not inevitable...
Like you said, franchises wait for years just to have the chance to be real contenders.
For a team like S.A. not being contenders for many, many years would be unbearable...
Like Holt said, the team is in good financial shape...and that's normal since we've been in the play offs for a lot of years consecutively...making so a lot more money than teams out of play offs.
Well, this money, IMHO, can be used for a two/three year run at a le that is still posible with the current core of the big three plus some other valuable guys...we don't have to break the bank permanently, but for a limitae space of time...and the we can start re-building.
I mean, in conclusion, that an investment of 10/20 millions in salary + lux tax can be worth in case with this we have 10/20 more playoffs games...and, first of al, a chance to still be real contenders for 2/three years.

You may see value in such an expenditure of money, but it is not your money at risk or your job on the line. The Spurs have survived in this market, against long odds, through a combination of good fortune and good management. Additional spending of the type you suggest guarantees nothing on the court (see Dallas, NY, and Cleveland), but does put the financial health of the franchise at risk. It will not happen.

And if you want to talk about an unbearable situation for a city and a fanbase, ask the folks in Seattle.

[venitian navigator]

You may see value in such an expenditure of money, but it is not your money at risk or your job on the line. The Spurs have survived in this market, against long odds, through a combination of good fortune and good management. Additional spending of the type you suggest guarantees nothing on the court (see Dallas, NY, and Cleveland), but does put the financial health of the franchise at risk. It will not happen.

And if you want to talk about an unbearable situation for a city and a fanbase, ask the folks in Seattle.

I cannot agree on this.
First of all I cheer for Spurs and not of the dead Seattle team ...(but I like the "new" Seattle team, alias Oklahoma Thunder).
Second, I don't think that overspending for a limited amont of time, like two/three years years will broke the team finances...after ten years of money coming from our play-offs run (four till the end) without paying the lux tax.
Imho, in this league, when you have a chance to compete for the le, you have to take it...Imho we'll be compe ive just till the big three will play at their level ...evidence is we lost last two years just because of bad health conditions of one or two of the big three...with nobody else capable of supporting the team as they did.
Things are not gonna change, the risk of bad health conditions for one or more of the big three is the some or more 'cause age doesn't come back...and we just have been beated at the first round of play offs.
No play off game means a lot less money.
You can't play Manu and Tim like they're both 25...and Tim is under contract for other three years.
The only point is if the spurs management thinks the big three stuff is done or not...but if they don't think they're done, any spurs fan may have the legitimate expectation that the management makes all the possible, first of all economical, efforts for the best cast available.
They can and they should...obviously, only for the "right" players....

[Mel_13]

I cannot agree on this.
First of all I cheer for Spurs and not of the dead Seattle team ...(but I like the "new" Seattle team, alias Oklahoma Thunder).
Second, I don't think that overspending for a limited amont of time, like two/three years years will broke the team finances...after ten years of money coming from our play-offs run (four till the end) without paying the lux tax.
Imho, in this league, when you have a chance to compete for the le, you have to take it...Imho we'll be compe ive just till the big three will play at their level ...evidence is we lost last two years just because of bad health conditions of one or two of the big three...with nobody else capable of supporting the team as they did.
Things are not gonna change, the risk of bad health conditions for one or more of the big three is the some or more 'cause age doesn't come back...and we just have been beated at the first round of play offs.
No play off game means a lot less money.
You can't play Manu and Tim like they're both 25...and Tim is under contract for other three years.
The only point is if the spurs management thinks the big three stuff is done or not...but if they don't think they're done, any spurs fan may have the legitimate expectation that the management makes all the possible, first of all economical, efforts for the best cast available.
They can and they should...obviously, only for the "right" players....

Look friend, you are en led to your opinion as to what financial measures the Spurs "should" take to maximize their chances to contend for a le. I am not going to make any further effort to convince you otherwise.

You are, however, destined to be sorely disappointed. The Spurs are not increasing payroll 15-20M. They will "make all possible efforts" within a responsible budget.

[Mr. Body]

I've never seen so many permanent links in a forum.

[yavozerb]

NBAdraft.net on Travis Outlaw possibly being dealt:


The Portland Trailblazers would like to dump Travis Outlaw ($4 million next year) and their pick and clear some additional space to make a run at Hedo Turkoglu.

The Blazers have 12 guys under contract next season and loads of talent, and somehow their cap is at just $50 million. So they are in position to make some moves, and have an owner (Paul Allen) and GM (Kevin Prichard) who are eager to improve.

The league's salary cap is expected to be close or less than the $58 million it was in 2008-09. (Imagine, had Darius Miles stayed gone, they would have an additional 9 million to play with.)

Portland's cap looks great right now, but next year they'll have to resign Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge, so if they want a free agent it better be this summer.

After his playoff heroics, it's unlikely the Magic will be able to afford to resign Turkoglu. While many teams with cap space are looking forward to the 2010 free agent class, Portland's situation forces them to go after a free agent now.

There's also the possibility that a team such as Olympiacos or Panathinaikos jumps into the mix and makes a huge offer to him to come overseas to finish out his career. Hedo has a game that would extremely well in Europe with his ability to make plays for himself or others.

[Bruno]

Outlaw contract is fully unguaranteed if he is waived before July 1st. If Blazers are looking for more capspace, they can simply waive him.

[robert1886]

Outlaw contract is fully unguaranteed if he is waived before July 1st. If Blazers are looking for more capspace, they can simply waive him.

no way they waive him

[yavozerb]

Outlaw contract is fully unguaranteed if he is waived before July 1st. If Blazers are looking for more capspace, they can simply waive him.

Outlaw would be pretty damn nice..I guess they could drop him for cap reasons, but there is no need to with many teams interested I am sure.

[Bruno]

Outlaw would be pretty damn nice..I guess they could drop him for cap reasons, but there is no need to with many teams interested I am sure.

Well, if you want both the capspace and something in return for Outlaw, you had to find another team with capspace or a big trade exception that want Outlaw.
I'm not sure Blazers can find this team.

[Biggems]

So Outlaw and Portland's 1st for Kurt Thomas?

They get rid of the parts they want and in return, they get an expiring contract that they can either trade, or merely waive.

Now that would really leave us thin on the front line, but if we are able to re-sign Gooden, it shouldn't hurt us too much.

[ss1986v2]

So Outlaw and Portland's 1st for Kurt Thomas?

They get rid of the parts they want and in return, they get an expiring contract that they can either trade, or merely waive.

again, why not just keep outlaw? hes fully unguaranteed while KT isnt.

[portnoy1]

3 way trade with Clippers and Raptors.

San Antonio sends C/F Oberto $3.6 million and F Bowen $4million to Clippers
San Antonio sends C/F Thomas $4.2 million and G Mason Jr. $3.5million to Raptors

Clippers Send C Kaman $9.5million to Spurs
Clippers send F Al Thorton $1.7 million to Raptors
Clippers send G Ricky Davis $2.3 million to Raptors

Raptors Send C/F Bargnani $5.1million to Spurs

This trade should work. Why 1 - the spurs have are $9million under the cap according to Espn trade machine / Clippers $3 million under / Raptors $12million under.

The spurs get 2 young 7 foot centers who both block shots well. Kaman is a solid rebounder and Bargnani has unlimited range and has the versatility to play positions 3-5.

The clippers need to get rid of some guys to make way for blake griffin. Once they receive Oberto/Bowen they can cut them and save some money; almost $6million.

the raptors at this point are willing to make some bizzare changes. They are soft on the boards. behind bosh they had Moon/Oneal to grab rebounds before they got traded. trading one of their shooters (kapono) for a rebounder (evans) while the other shooter (parker) is a free agent shows that they are trying to get help on the boards. Thomas is a good rebounder and Mason jr. is the shooter to replace Parker. Thorton is the creative young wing player that will replace Marion's $17million contract.



Lineup

PF - Tim Duncan / Bargnani
SF - James Singleton / Finley
C - Chris Kaman / Bargnani
PG - Tony Parker / Hill
SG - Dahntay Jones / Manu

[ffadicted]

portnoy, stop dreaming lol

[KSeal]

The last big the Clippers would want to move would be Kaman, they'll look to trade Camby and Randolph (won't happen). No way they trade Al Thorton either.

[loveforthegame]

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jon...June-22nd-3276

Various draft and trade talk.