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  1. #26
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Drone attacks in Pakistan. Yeah. That's a good point.

    We oughtn't meddle in the internal affairs of other countries unless some vital US interest is at stake. In 2002. it's at least arguable there was. What vital interest is at hazard now in Afghanistan isn't really clear to me. We contained the USSR for 50 years, but couldn't keep Afghanistan in check without invading and occupying? Count me skeptical.
    Because we're far better than the Russians. We can walk into Afghanistan, give away a few soccer balls, call it a democracy and declare victory!
    Oh wait, it didn't quite work that way... never mind.

  2. #27
    Believe.
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    Because we're far better than the Russians. We can walk into Afghanistan, give away a few soccer balls, call it a democracy and declare victory!
    Oh wait, it didn't quite work that way... never mind.
    I know a way to do it... But is suspect it isn't politically viable, mostly because it requires most of them to die...

  3. #28
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    If you won't even say it, it probably isn't.

  4. #29
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    The question of the ethical quality of black ops is a good one. I'm willing to accept black ops as a "sometimes it has to be done" affair, but I don't think it's right. Just like I'm willing to accept a "some person might torture someone for information" outcome on an individual basis, while not wanting the law to enshrine that right.

    However, I only support black ops in the sense that the people being attacked/kidnapped are already plotting against the US or people within the US, effectively making black ops a "retaliation" but one in secret. I'm not ok with, say assassinating a popular political leader in another country that is espousing views we don't like, or using sabotage against a commercial industry that isn't advancing a warfare agenda in any way.

  5. #30
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I wonder how dangerous he thought Al Qaeda was on 9/10/2001?

  6. #31
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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  7. #32
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I wonder how dangerous he thought Al Qaeda was on 9/10/2001?
    Irrelevant. We're talking about the Taliban and Al Qaeda now.

  8. #33
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Your point, please? I know this is supposed to be some kind of ad hominem but your argument is elliptical, as usual.

    Dollars to donuts you didn't even read it, D. I read a little bit, and it's totally reasonable. Attacks cause people to freak out and exaggerate the effects. It was true of Pearl Harbor, and it's true of 9/11.

    You defend the hysterical exaggerations. Some people prefer reason and analysis. Each to his own taste.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 06-17-2009 at 04:18 PM.

  9. #34
    Believe.
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    Irrelevant. We're talking about the Taliban and Al Qaeda now.
    I think the potential for the Taliban and Al Qaeda to be dangerous to the US is there. I do not know how much greater that threat is than it was in 2001. I suspect in some ways it has lessened and in some ways it has increased. I do think that Iraq and Afghanistan are working as something of a buffer zone, with terrorist organizations being more concentrated on whats going on in their front yard than with the continental US. However I also suspect that there are few home run plays in the works for the terrorists organizations, because thats what I would do.

    Essentially, who can know without more information...

  10. #35
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Much depends on how you unpack *dangerous to the US*. Is either an existential threat to the country? No way. Are they capable of deadly crimes and destruction? Sure.

    Are they as dangerous to US citizens as the drive to and from work?

    Your prescription bottle?

    Your swimming pool?

    What's on your your dinner plate?

    Falling down?

    Electrocution?

    Poisoning?

    Fire?

    The answer to all of these questions is no. And it's not even close.

    How many of the above are you freaking out about right now?

  11. #36
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Irrelevant. We're talking about the Taliban and Al Qaeda now.

    Guy just seems to be an antiwar type.

  12. #37
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Bottom line is, I don't spend my days worrying about Al Qaeda, but I want someone in this govt to pay attention to them.

  13. #38
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Bottom line is, I don't spend my days worrying about Al Qaeda, but I want someone in this govt to pay attention to them.
    Please quit changing the subject. Nobody's arguing that the government shouldn't pay attention to Al Qaeda. The present question is whether the war in Afghanistan is worth it.

    Can you tell me what we stand to gain from it, Darrin?

  14. #39
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Please quit changing the subject. Nobody's arguing that the government shouldn't pay attention to Al Qaeda. The present question is whether the war in Afghanistan is worth it.

    Can you tell me what we stand to gain from it, Darrin?

    WAR!


    What is it GOOD for? Absolutely nothin'.

  15. #40
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    (redacted)

    I'll just assume that means you have no good answer to the question.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 06-17-2009 at 06:23 PM.

  16. #41
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Afghanistan may be the wrong war but American blood lust and the MIC won't let it be. I doubt Obama will be able to overcome that. Come to think of it, he campaigned on ramping that effort up. More of the same. Surprise, surprise.

  17. #42
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Afghanistan may be the wrong war but American blood lust and the MIC won't let it be..
    At least you can reason with people a little bit now. A few years ago I'd have been shouted down by a chorus of hysterical superpatriots.

  18. #43
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    the longest war in US history has officially ended

    The war in Afghanistan, fought for 13 bloody years and still raging, came to a formal end Sunday with a quiet flag-lowering ceremony in Kabul that marked the transition of the fighting from U.S.-led combat troops to the country's own security forces.

    In front of a small, hand-picked audience at the headquarters of the NATO mission, the green-and-white flag of the International Security Assistance Force was ceremonially rolled up and sheathed, and the flag of the new international mission called Resolute Support was hoisted.


    U.S. Gen. John Campbell, commander of ISAF, commemorated the 3,500 international soldiers killed on Afghan battlefields and praised the country's army for giving him confidence that they are able to take on the fight alone.

    "Resolute Support will serve as the bedrock of an enduring partnership" between NATO and Afghanistan, Campbell told an audience of Afghan and international military officers and officials, as well as diplomats and journalists.
    "The road before us remains challenging, but we will triumph," he added.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6386602.html

  19. #44
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    what did we get? how did the USA benefit from 13 years of war in Afghanistan?

  20. #45
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    2200+ US military dead, a $T+ wasted, 100Ks Afghans dead.

    Taliban now taking over regions won and thought secure from the Taliban.

    As always, British, Russians, Americans LOST in Afghanistan, outwaited, outwitted by the locals.

  21. #46
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    The War In Afghanistan By The Numbers

    Here are some numbers to provide a sense of scope to the war’s impact, longevity, toll, and effect:

    13:
    number of years the war lasted, making this the longest war in American history


    140,000:
    highest number of U.S. troops present in the country, in 2010, during the surge begun at President Obama’s behest


    13,500:
    number of international troops that will stay in country for Resolute Support, including roughly 10,800 U.S. troops (a number that will continue to fall through 2015 and 2016), and 1,000 more than planned earlier this year


    38,000:
    number of U.S. forces that were in Afghanistan at the beginning of 2014


    2,224:
    the number of U.S. troops, according to an AP tally, who were killed in Afghanistan during the war, with more than 1,000 international coalition troops killed


    17,674:
    estimated number of U.S. troops wounded during Operation Enduring Freedom, according to the website iCasualties.org


    21,000:
    estimate number of Afghan civilians killed since 2001 as a result of “crossfire, improvised explosive devices, assassination, bombing, and night raids into houses of suspected insurgents,” according to the website Costs of War


    90:
    percentage of troops that are now home from Iraq and Afghanistan from the 180,000 that were in both countries when President Obama took office, according to a White House statement noting that 15,000 troops remain


    747,000:
    estimated number of weapons the U.S. provided to the Afghan National Security Forces, many of which experts say have gone missing, prompting worries they will be used in escalating insurgency attacks by Taliban fighters


    3,380:
    estimated number of people who died in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, including those on the hijacked planes, first responders, and victims in the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon


    35:
    number of years since the Marxist revolution, which essentially kicked off a near-constant period of brutal civil conflict


    69:
    the number of women in Afghanistan’s parliament, which is proportionately more than the number in the U.S. Congress. To be fair, when written, their cons ution set a quota of at least 27 percent female representation in parliament, a quota that was recently revised to 20 percent.


    3 million:
    approximate number of girls who are now enrolled in school, while under the Taliban, virtually no girls attended school — and USAID helped to train 25,000 female teachers


    1:
    the ranking Afghanistan received when Thomson Reuters released its list of most dangerous countries for women in 2011


    9:
    the percentage of women who die in childbirth in Afghanistan


    4,000:
    approximate number of midwives, up from less than 500 under Taliban rule — and half of the new ones were trained by USAID-supported programs


    87:
    percentage of women who are illiterate


    70-80:
    percentage of girls forced into marriage


    14:
    cases of polio in 2013, which is a drop from 80 cases in 2011


    7 million:
    approximate number of Afghan voters took part in last June’s presidential elections


    46:
    number of people (20 civilians, 26 Afghan troops) who were killed due to attacks on Election Day


    68:
    number of private television channels, not including 23 state and provincial networks — though journalists face many threats from security forces and religious en ies


    9.4:
    percentage of Afghanis who have internet access, according to a 2013 Ministry of Information report


    3.3 million:
    new Afghani customers linked to 172 megawatts of new electricity on the nation’s grid — a six to twenty-eight percent jump in the number of Afghans with access to reliable power


    34 million:
    amount, in dollars the U.S. spent trying, unsuccessfully, to provide Afghan farmers with soybeans as a new cash crop option


    63.7 billion:
    dollars appropriated to “overseas contingency operations” in Iraq and Afghanistan for the coming year in the latest appropriations bill passed by Congress, including $2.9 billion for Afghanistan’s Ministry of Defense


    62:
    percent drop in child mortality since 2002; infant mortality decreased 53 percent

    http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/12/28/3607134/afghanistan-war-by-the-numbers/



  22. #47
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    what did we get? how did the USA benefit from 13 years of war in Afghanistan?
    It think the central issue is Salafist types like ISIS and Taliban having their own geographically autonomous area and national security. The length of time nearly a generation was all about propping up a regime which was necessary. They now have somewhat of a plurality and a comparatively well educated incoming generation. It's neocolonialism sure but I would argue the previous order had to be removed and held at bay anyway.

    The obvious concern is the Taliban coming out of the hills and retaking the country. This next year will be key.

  23. #48
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    The obvious concern is the Taliban coming out of the hills and retaking the country.
    next year? how about this year?

    As US, NATO exit, thousands of Afghans flee returning Taliban

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Lates...urning-Taliban


    Afghanistan conflict: Taliban declares 'defeat' of Nato


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30626728



  24. #49
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It think the central issue is Salafist types like ISIS and Taliban having their own geographically autonomous area and national security. The length of time nearly a generation was all about propping up a regime which was necessary. They now have somewhat of a plurality and a comparatively well educated incoming generation. It's neocolonialism sure but I would argue the previous order had to be removed and held at bay anyway.

    The obvious concern is the Taliban coming out of the hills and retaking the country. This next year will be key.
    And if they do, then what? Another decade of war to assure the stability of a small, relatively unimportant part of South Asia? This is in our national interest how, again?

  25. #50
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    If we just spent 13 years propping up a regime that can't stand on its own for a year, maybe we backed the wrong horse.

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