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  1. #51
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    If we just spent 13 years propping up a regime that can't stand on its own for a year, maybe we backed the wrong horse.
    Agreed. This is going to be Iraq II. Army will throw down their weapons and run at the first sign of trouble and the big guys will retire in Europe with their stolen millions/billions.

  2. #52
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    Agreed. This is going to be Iraq II. Army will throw down their weapons and run at the first sign of trouble and the big guys will retire in Europe with their stolen millions/billions.
    Thanks, Repugs! Breaking Iraq AND Afghanistan, destabilizing the Middle East.

    iow, Never Forget! Repug War Crimes!

  3. #53
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Thanks, Repugs! Breaking Iraq AND Afghanistan, destabilizing the Middle East.

    iow, Never Forget! Repug War Crimes!
    Uhhhh FuzzySenior, I'm pretty sure the "Repubs" didn't do it all by themselves, spittle spittle

  4. #54
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    And if they do, then what? Another decade of war to assure the stability of a small, relatively unimportant part of South Asia? This is in our national interest how, again?
    2001 happened and this was the response. You can wave your hands at emotional generalizations like 'unimportant' but to do nothing certainly would have engendered more attacks. The foreign jihadis have since moved on to Mesopotamia but in 2001 it was certainly in our national security interests to topple that regime.

    Do you disagree that there is a significant political movement in the middle east to establish a Sunni nation or that the political party in question attacked us here?

    Once you get past that then you have to take responsibility for your actions. There is a history of nation building in the colonial era and following major conflicts. There are success stories and there are failures. You don't seem as much interested in discussing the actual security cir stance there as much as you are in cheering on any potential failure. They don't all fail you know.

  5. #55
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    Uhhhh FuzzySenior, I'm pretty sure the "Repubs" didn't do it all by themselves, spittle spittle
    yeah, yeah, the old false equivalence of "the Dems are just as bad as the Repugs", but the Dems weren't in power 2001-2008, and didn't execute the destruction of two countries for NO GAIN and PLENTY of LOSS

    Never Forget!

  6. #56
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Hmmm....if memory serves me correctly Obama was a major proponent of moving the "real war" to Afghanistan.

  7. #57
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Agreed. This is going to be Iraq II. Army will throw down their weapons and run at the first sign of trouble and the big guys will retire in Europe with their stolen millions/billions.
    If the Caliphists escape Mesopotamia and go there maybe. Take a look at your map and look to see what is between Afghanistan and Iraq. What is that country's opinion of Sunni jihadis?

  8. #58
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    If the Caliphists escape Mesopotamia and go there maybe. Take a look at your map and look to see what is between Afghanistan and Iraq. What is that country's opinion of Sunni jihadis?
    I realize it won't be the Caliphists, but rather the various Taliban tribes...same difference as far as wasted lives/money/resources to prop up a puppet government that won't survive a US withdrawal.

  9. #59
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    Hmmm....if memory serves me correctly Obama was a major proponent of moving the "real war" to Afghanistan.
    Obama took office with TONS OF REPUG in progress, a cratering economy, two botched, unwinnable wars. He hasn't done so badly, and above all, he doesn't OWN any of the Repug . Thanks, Repugs.

  10. #60
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Obama took office with TONS OF REPUG in progress, a cratering economy, two botched, unwinnable wars. He hasn't done so badly, and above all, he doesn't OWN any of the Repug . Thanks, Repugs.
    Please....Fuzzyoutons...There is plenty of blame to go around. Obama definitely owns his share on Afghanistan.

  11. #61
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    Please....Fuzzyoutons...There is plenty of blame to go around. Obama definitely owns his share on Afghanistan.
    Really, what could he have done differently with Afghanistan to produce that laughable American myth of "Greetings! The American military brings you democracy and freedom!"

    What big mistakes did he make with that Repug-created hole? how could he have "won" Iraq and Afghanistan?

  12. #62
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    2001 happened and this was the response. You can wave your hands at emotional generalizations like 'unimportant' but to do nothing certainly would have engendered more attacks. The foreign jihadis have since moved on to Mesopotamia but in 2001 it was certainly in our national security interests to topple that regime.
    They were not a threat to us then and they aren't now. Invading Afghanistan to flush OBL from his hiding place was a grotesque waste of life and treasure.

    Do you disagree that there is a significant political movement in the middle east to establish a Sunni nation or that the political party in question attacked us here?
    There wasn't then. There is now because two US invasions in South Asia and continuing war ever since have destabilized the whole region. Nature abhors a vacuum...

    Once you get past that then you have to take responsibility for your actions. There is a history of nation building in the colonial era and following major conflicts. There are success stories and there are failures. You don't seem as much interested in discussing the actual security cir stance there as much as you are in cheering on any potential failure. They don't all fail you know.
    It's unsurprising you'd like to change the subject. Afghanistan doesn't really fit in that conversation, does it?

  13. #63
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I realize it won't be the Caliphists, but rather the various Taliban tribes...same difference as far as wasted lives/money/resources to prop up a puppet government that won't survive a US withdrawal.
    All of our NATO allies participated as opposed to Iraq. Karzai isn't anything like Maliki. How do you see the fall of Afghanistan? I don't see it when Pakistan, Iran and former soviet states don't want it.

  14. #64
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    They were not a threat to us then and they aren't now. Invading Afghanistan to flush OBL from his hiding place was a grotesque waste of life and treasure.

    There wasn't then. There is now because two US invasions in South Asia and continuing war ever since have destabilized the whole region. Nature abhors a vacuum...

    It's unsurprising you'd like to change the subject. Afghanistan doesn't really fit in that conversation, does it?
    A bad literary narrative in place of reality. How delightful!

    FLUSHING LIFE AND TREASURE!

    Your story sucks because it leaves out the part where we were attacked and deposed those that attacked us. You speak as if loot should be the driving cause for war to boot, warmonger.

    Wake me up when Kandahar is threatened.

  15. #65
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    All of our NATO allies participated as opposed to Iraq. Karzai isn't anything like Maliki. How do you see the fall of Afghanistan? I don't see it when Pakistan, Iran and former soviet states don't want it.
    Lmao @ anyone "wanting" that hole. A return to tribal anarchy is virtually inevitable.

  16. #66
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Should've never gone there and it pains me to say it: we'll be back.

    I did take much less issue with this war than Iraq, nevertheless, it was another incursion without clear goals or objectives.

  17. #67
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Your story sucks because it leaves out the part where we were attacked and deposed those that attacked us.
    The Taliban didn't attack us. Their guests Al Qaeda did.

  18. #68
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    The Taliban didn't attack us. Their guests Al Qaeda did.
    and US blasted the out of whatever AQ they could find.

    the mistake (the hubris-polluted, self-regarding USA NEVER learns) was "the US govt is now here to bring you Democracy and Freedom!"

  19. #69
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    The Taliban didn't attack us. Their guests Al Qaeda did.
    Sure and we gave them a month to expel him before we gave them the missile.

    Doing nothing was not an option in the fall of 2001 and for all the bad intelligence the CIA produced for jr in the following years, they were right on regarding AQ and OBL.

    Fewer US citizens died in that occupation -the Taliban fled early- than did in the WTC attacks so I guess you just want more of a financial windfall as a basis for war. Either that or your distaste for me and lack of self control regarding principles is apparent again.

  20. #70
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Whoulda thought babyboutons would be a war monger?

  21. #71
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Whoulda thought babyboutons would be a war monger?
    Anyone who has been paying attention. I keep telling people that I am not the classic lib but far too many need their politics dumbed down.

    Boutox is anti-capitalist as well as socialist as well as a democratic excusemaker.

    I think both economics have a place. I cannot stand Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, or the Clintons.

  22. #72
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Fewer US citizens died in that occupation -the Taliban fled early- than did in the WTC attacks so I guess you just want more of a financial windfall as a basis for war.
    A minimally plausible national interest rationale for occupying Afghanistan 13 years, would have been nice. None has been mentioned yet.

  23. #73
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    A minimally plausible national interest rationale for occupying Afghanistan 13 years, would have been nice. None has been mentioned yet.
    Sure, a sense of history and various occupations over the last 200 years. Also an ethic of finishing what you started and not leaving the power vacuum you were decrying a couple days ago.

    You do not deny that we were just in responding to the WTC attack. Once you move past that, you realize that the occupation of the country is a responsibility we take on at that point. You can see the uncertainty about the security situation from various cons uents of this thread and that is at the crux of the length of time.

    If you want to argue specific policies like force-feeding democracy to a people not equipped for it then I will not dispute but our reasons for going and staying were necessary in my view just like the occupations of Germany and Japan following the last major conflict we didn't up.

  24. #74
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    got the job done now all need to do is gtfo

    htf clowns went from hunting for OBL to fighting taliban is beyond me, it was stupid to even think of liberating them

  25. #75
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sure, a sense of history and various occupations over the last 200 years. Also an ethic of finishing what you started and not leaving the power vacuum you were decrying a couple days ago.
    13 years isn't enough? How long would be? And how would that serve the US national interest. Like, now?

    You do not deny that we were just in responding to the WTC attack. Once you move past that, you realize that the occupation of the country is a responsibility we take on at that point. You can see the uncertainty about the security situation from various cons uents of this thread and that is at the crux of the length of time.
    It's their hole. Let them manage it. We obviously can't do it for them.

    If you want to argue specific policies like force-feeding democracy to a people not equipped for it then I will not dispute but our reasons for going and staying were necessary in my view just like the occupations of Germany and Japan following the last major conflict we didn't up.
    Well, we ed up this one. If you can't see that, you're the one who suc bed to the facile propaganda about it.

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