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Do you get the sense that this thread has evolved away from "McDyess vs the lakers last season"?
Also, no one (or at least normal people), are not saying Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza. But it is on the offensive end where you will see the big improvement.
Artest being able to focus on defense will be a great thing and he works his butt off. But that does not change the fact he has lost a step on the perimeter and that the great offensive players he will have to guard will not try and beat Artest at his own game. They will do what Kobe did.
Do you get the sense that this thread has evolved away from "McDyess vs the lakers last season"?
its better than hearing blair "the beast that will rule the world" is better than gasol, amare etc
Well after seeing Kobe clearly saying he wants Odom back, I just dont see Buss letting Odom walk. Last thing Buss needs is his franchise superstar upset. Im guessing they are just hammering out the details.
You have done nothing to refute anything. Anyone who watches the game can see Artest has lost a step. There is really no arguing this point. Kobe torched Artest.
LMAO at saying if Ron has lost a step that Manu/Duncan must be done. What kind of gorilla math logic is that?
Tim has lost a step, but he was always 10x the player Artest was. Not to mention, you don't see Spurs fans bringing up stats from 2006 and awards from 2004 to say that Duncan has not lost a step.
How can you agree with the assessment that Ariza got torched by Melo and the Artest will be an improvment, see these numbers, then post the garbage you posted from 2006 as any kind of evidence that Artest is still an elite defender?
1) No one is saying he is Finley on the perimeter, but he has lost a step and is no where near an elite level out there. So if Ariza did not get torched by Melo, are you saying that Dr.House is an idiot/liar/worst poster on ST?
2) You showed stats from 2006, correct? Did you watch him last season? Did you hear what Rocket fans say about his defense? Did you see what Kobe did to him?
3) Maybe so, but Tim was so far ahead of Artest that it does not matter. Also, if you look at the per minute stats from last year, when Manu played, he was not far off of his production from last year which was his best season. Manu got injured in the playoffs the year before last, up until then he had a great season. So that does not make sense.
Not the point. Lebron/Melo/Pierce are all near his level offensively. If Artest was getting torched by Kobe, the same will happen by those 3. He will not be an upgrade over Ariza in that regard which Laker "fans" are claiming.
No, no, no. I already showed you the stats, Artest has held all 3 of those players to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.
Look what Trevor was able to do against Melo 1-1:
Game 1 WCF: Melo - 14/20 - 39 pts
Game 2 WCF: Melo - 12/29 - 34 pts
It wasn't until Phil had to change the defensive strategy to trap Melo that we were able to bottle him up.
DPG you simply don't know what the you are talking about.
What??? Melo and Pierce are widely considered the best overall offensive players in the game. Lebron, although he lacks a good post game, is still very, very good with his combo of outside shooting, size, speed and ball handling.
Don't be silly, those 3 are very close to Kobe as an offensive player.
Not to mention I posted stats to refute your claims. Your PER had nothing to do with just Ron. Keep in mind the Rockets had Battier to help as well. They played solid team defense. It was far from Ron and Shane often drew the tougher SF match ups.
Pierce, Melo and Lebron are not post players. They are perimeter players. You need someone to guard them so Kobe can relax.
Artest > Ariza, but not for the reasons you are listing.
I like the Laker fan's consistency...
LMAO. Thank you for proving my point by posting that article. The part you have underlined: They are not raving about how Artest is a defensive upgrade over Ariza. It says "another long armed defender to fill the role, AND A WHOLE LOT MORE PROVEN OFFENSIVE...'
That is what I said. It is a wash defensively, but the upgrade will take place on the offensive end. Are you this dense?
Are you re ed? I am asking seriously because I will feel bad for some of the things I have said to you.So, after all of your hating, debating, and disagreeing, you are admitting that we upgraded, overall....
Where have I ever said Artest was not an upgrade over Ariza overall?
This entire thing was about the fact Laker "fans" are saying Artest is an elite defender and much better than Ariza on that end.
That is all.
There is no hating, disagreeing or debating on any other subject or at all. Read back on everything. I am not hating, simply stating common knowledge.
Artest may not be as quick as Ariza but definitely stronger. In my book I say Artest is still one of the top defenders and if I really want to sit here and look for any bad in the Lakers picking him up its him knowing his role. He is alittle crazy and really thinks his game is on Kobe's level. I'm sure tho PJ may be able to control that tho. However I wouldn't say he shut down Manu cause you don't really shut guys like him down but maybe slowed him down alittle. Just like Kobe when they're on they're on.
It's not a wash defensively. It's an improvement in the areas we are lacking.
We don't need someone to defend SG's and PG's, we have Kobe and Brown for that. We need someone to guard the bulky SF's of the league.
Yes, you keep saying that. Kobe was able to coast defensively, with the exception of certain parts of the game where he would switch onto someone for a little bit.
With Artest, now Kobe has to guard the excellent players in the back court (Fish and Kobe will have to guard TP and Manu for example...).
It is opinion that he will fill some "void" where the Lakers were lacking. Like I said, it is a wash defensively because they are both good at opposite things.
You are making it seem like just because Kobe was a SG and Melo/Pierce/Bron are SF's that Artest will do ok. He got absolutely torched by Kobe once Kobe figured out that he does not have to go down low and be stubborn.
All that matters are playoff teams and elite offensive players. Melo/Pierce/Bron are SF's but present the same problems as Kobe did for Artest because they are perimeter players that can go inside (even though Lebron is not as good in the post).
Just to keep things on track: McDyess
Artest will be able to do a much better job at keeping Melo/Pierce/Bron from beasting inside and getting offensive rebounds for sure, but they will have the same strategy that Kobe did against him. I do not care what LL says, those 3 guys are very close to Kobe's offensive game.
Lebron is pretty much the best defensive SF when he focuses. Everyone else falls in the tier below. That is why Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Kobe are so great offensively. No one can really shut them down. You are asking for a list that does not exist.
Certainly Artest cannot.
i think you guys are approaching this the wrong way. Artest being there will result in fall away threes and fadeaway long twos, hitting at a 34% clip. Taking away shots from a ultra efficient Gasol, and Ariza (last year, shut mouth, plays D, and hit 3s at 50% clip) . Have fun with two chuckers on the team.
Now the touches are going to be (Kobe), (Artest), Gasol, (Fisher), Odom, (Bynum). Thers only so much ball.
Compare to last year, (Kobe), Gasol, (fisher), odom, ariza, (bynum). (paranthesis refers to ppl who like to shoot)
But on the plus side, hes going to be physical and bodying up SFs, unfortunately only time will tell if he is discplined enough for the +s to outweigh the -s.
oh and best of luck with artest in the triangle, he only knows how to play one on one.
No Kobe said Ginobili was a warrior, great player etc.
He never said he was afraid of him. who could be afraid of someone on the bench in a suit?
Did Battier play at all in those games?
No, Artest is not next in line. Where did I say that? You asked for the elite SF defenders, guys who can shut down Kobe/Pierce/Melo...Only Lebron has that ability and even then it is tough because they are all great offensive players that cannot really be stopped unless you swarm them with multiple players and keep the ball out of their hands.
I am saying that the players mentioned cannot be stopped, even when you have elite defenders. When Artest/Bruce/Kobe...were still elite defenders, guys like Kobe/Wade/Bron/Melo still had very good numbers. They might have had to work harder or had some bad nights, but overall the offense wins.
Artest is still a good defensive player, just not better than Ariza. He is different for all of the reasons I outlined.
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