Gas Prices

[The Ressurrected One]

I don't believe those numbers take into account plastics.

[MannyIsGod]

RE- ING-GARDLESS, the rising price of oil plays a huge factor in our gas prices.. manny, wants to say it is only bc of the lack of refining capabilities...

Yes, as the price of oil goes up, so does the price of gas because you need to purchase oil to make gas. But there is the added variable of how fast you can actualy make the gas. Right now, the gas supply is not meeting the demand because of the fact that companies can't refine the oil fast enough.

So while yes, the record oil prices are driving up gas prices, a much larger factor in driving up those gas prices is the supply shortage because of refining capacity.

Are you following?

No, thats not what I said. If the price of oil dropped, there would be a gas price drop.

Exactly what part of me saying there is a direct corolation between the price of oil and gas do you not understand?

Yeah, that makes sense. The cost of the end product would be directly porportional to the cost of the starting product.

What I was trying to explain to Clandestino was that even though that is the case there may be other factors in the product manufacturing (the refining in gasolines example) that can have a greater impact on a price increase.

Man, actualy, the example you gave is also a great parallel. Maylasia has to pay the same for oil, but because of cheaper abor, thereby allowing them to produce a cheaper petroleum based product.

You decide: Does Clandestino have the ability to read English?

[Useruser666]

?

[The Ressurrected One]

?

It just struck me as funny...after the couple of posts from yesterday regarding the importance of petroleum products in plastics productions.

Sorry...no offense intended.

[Useruser666]

So while yes, the record oil prices are driving up gas prices, a much larger factor in driving up those gas prices is the supply shortage because of refining capacity.

I believe that is wrong Manny. I would say lack of refining capability is a factor, but it is not the driving force behind this latest price e.

Oil has gone up sharply in price and so gas pricing has paralleled that. Unless you can point out a reason why demand has grown by such a large amount in the last few months, or why the refining capabilities have suddenly been reduced to warrant the price increase, you don't have a case.

The refining abilities have been exceeded, but it's a gradual increase in price until new production sources are put online. The price of oil is directly connected with the price of gas.

[Useruser666]

It just struck me as funny...after the couple of posts from yesterday regarding the importance of petroleum products in plastics productions.

Sorry...no offense intended.

I said they were important in regards to plastics, but I couldn't find where in any of the numbers given, what percentage of the oil demand was directed at finished plastic (petro based) goods.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe that is wrong Manny. I would say lack of refining capability is a factor, but it is not the driving force behind this latest price e.

Oil has gone up sharply in price and so gas pricing has paralleled that. Unless you can point out a reason why demand has grown by such a large amount in the last few months, or why the refining capabilities have suddenly been reduced to warrant the price increase, you don't have a case.

The refining abilities have been exceeded, but it's a gradual increase in price until new production sources are put online. The price of oil is directly connected with the price of gas.

Refining abilities were exceed years ago. Much of the price increases over the past few years have ties with that.

Also, demand is contining to climb rapidly for a few reasons. First, we have more cars on the road now than ever. Secondly, the fuel efficency is droping. So, you have a larger consumer base, which is using more oil, while the supply isn't changing. Demand is what is driving up the cost of both gas and oil, in the same but also different ways.

As you said, China and others are driving up the cost of oil because they need more, which in turn drives up the price of gas. But then also because of a lack of refining capacity, and the increase in demand, we dont' have enough gas which drives up the price. When gas is imported because of demand, you raise the price even more because you add transportation and other costs.

In retrospect, I worded it badly however. Oil is the main driving factor in the price. However, while it is a larger part of the price, if you take the gasoline price increase and look at the causes, I think you will see that refining capacity has played a larger role in that increase than the rise in the cost of oil.

[MannyIsGod]

I said they were important in regards to plastics, but I couldn't find where in any of the numbers given, what percentage of the oil demand was directed at finished plastic (petro based) goods.

Thats probably because it's an insignifficant amount when compared to the other finished products.

[The Ressurrected One]

Well, I don't think we're gonna hit the "catastrophic" $4.00/gallon mark this time...whew!

Oil Hits 7-Week Low as Inventories Build

[MannyIsGod]

We're a long way from 4.00 gas, especialy when you consider how large the percentage of gas price is not even related to gas/oil. Ie, taxes.

[The Ressurrected One]

We're a long way from 4.00 gas, especialy when you consider how large the percentage of gas price is not even related to gas/oil. Ie, taxes.

I knew that...I was mocking the "Chicken Littles."

Adjusting for inflation, we'd have to have $10.00/gallon gasoline before we ever approached what I paid at the pump during the last years of that dark period known as the Carter administration.

I exaggerated, it's actually $4.68/gallon in 2005 dollars that is equivalent to the $1.45/gallon paid in 1980.

[Useruser666]

Check this site out. It has lots of info.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/gasprices/FAQ.shtml

[Useruser666]

Gasoline Prices: An Example

On a pre-tax basis, crude oil prices are the most important determinant of petroleum product prices, and often the most important factor in price changes as well. Crude oil prices reflect an overall market balance -- when crude oil prices are low, reflecting an oversupply, product prices will also be low; when crude oil prices are high, reflecting undersupply or high demand, product prices will also be high. When the price of crude oil moves up or down on a sustained basis, the change will be reflected in product markets, all other things being equal. The crude oil price increase was solely responsible for the increase in pump prices between the driving season of 1998 and the driving season of 1999, as shown in the illustration. (The illustration also demonstrates that in the low price environment of July 1998, the gasoline and other excise taxes accounted for the largest share of the price of gasoline at the pump. Taxes are discussed in a separate section.) Crude oil prices were again the largest factor in the increase between July 1999 and July 2000, accounting for about two-thirds of the increase in the pump price. In contrast, the gross retail margin -- the difference between a retail dealer's cost to purchase the gasoline and the price at which the dealer can sell the gasoline -- actually dropped by one-third between mid-1998 and mid-1999, righting itself again between mid-1999 and mid-2000. The gross refining and distribution margin stayed unchanged between mid-1998 and mid-1999, but increased between mid-1999 and mid-2000. Thus, it is useful to repeat that the price of petroleum products to consumers reflects costs plus market conditions, and those market conditions may augment or prevent a penny-for-penny passthrough of cost increases at any stage of the market.

[Useruser666]

[Useruser666]

Transportation does account for the largest portion of crude oil based products. But the increase in pricing is at a steady growth rate.

[Clandestino]

MOTHER ER!!! millions of graphs.. i will have to check this out later!!! this is worse than school! haha

[MannyIsGod]

Good graphs, Chris. I wish they had some more up to date, but I guess If the data is out there I can find it later.

[SpursWoman]

 PRODUCT SUPPLIED
Finished Motor Gasoline                   9,069    9,075    9,095    9,089
Kerosene-Type Jet Fuel                    1,737    1,712    1,530    1,535
Distillate Fuel Oil                       4,415    4,234    4,233    4,248
Residual Fuel Oil                           889      806      777      653
Propane/Propylene                         1,450    1,173    1,189    1,160
Other Oils                                3,291    3,326    3,389    3,510
Total Product Supplied                   20,851   20,325   20,213   20,195

That's a lot of condoms.

[mookie2001]

QUATTRO RAZOR PRODUCT SUPPLIED
Finished Razor Motor 9,069 9,075 9,095 9,089
Kerosene-Type Quattro Fuel 1,737 1,712 1,530 1,535
Distillate Razor 4,415 4,234 4,233 4,248
Residual Quattro 889 806 777 653
Propane/Propylene/Free Promotion 1,450 1,173 1,189 1,160
Online Razor Other Oils 3,291 3,326 3,389 3,510
Total Quattro Supplied 20,851 20,325 20,213 20,195

[Useruser666]

That's a lot of condoms.

Or one big one.

[Useruser666]

If you would say that owning a vehicle that is not very fuel efficient is wasteful then I think several other assumptions should be made as well.

Should people use jet ski's for recreational use?

How about any boats with gas engines?

What about ATVs?

How about motor homes?

Should gas lawn mowers or other yard equipment be sold?

What about cruises on ships?

Snow mobiles?

Personal jets?

Where does one draw the line? I know some of those examples may seem extreme to some of you, but your qualifications may seem just as extreme to others.

[MannyIsGod]

Lots of those are wasteful. But none have nearly the same effect as inefficent vehicles do. It's not even debateable. The governments own reports cite dropping gas efficency.

There are plenty of things that use gas, and do so wastefully, but none come anywhere near the level of cars.

I've said it before, and the figures are out there. Bring up the MPG average of the country and you eliminate the need for forgien oil.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and a gas tax effects everyone equaly. You buy a gallon of gas, you pay the tax on that gallon. So someone who "wastes" more gas, would in turn pay for it.

[Useruser666]

Oh, and a gas tax effects everyone equaly. You buy a gallon of gas, you pay the tax on that gallon. So someone who "wastes" more gas, would in turn pay for it.

So then you don't need any special taxing for more wasteful vehicles right?

So it's ok to waste a little gas on something totally not needed, but if you don't use the most efficient way to drive to work, that's wrong?

[MannyIsGod]

So then you don't need any special taxing for more wasteful vehicles right?

So it's ok to waste a little gas on something totally not needed, but if you don't use the most efficient way to drive to work, that's wrong?

What are you trying to get at? Are you trying to find contradictions in what I'm saying?

I think there is a big ass difference in driving an H2 which uses 4 times as much gas as average car and using maybe 10 gallons in a year to mow your yard.

We have a military pressence in the PG which is in place to protect the supply of oil. If we didn't need that oil, we woudln't be there. Those operations (and im' not talking about Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm talking a general US preassence in the region, although the first 2 are indirectly extensions the same thing) are paid for using federal money, which comes mostly from income taxes.

So that means, Joe blow who drives a fuel efficent vehicle, is having his tax dollars go to pay for military operations that he is not as responsible for as Joe Schmoe who drives an H2.

All things being equal, if Joe Blow uses 1,000 gallons of gas in a year and Joe Schmoe uses 5,000 gallons a year, they will both pay the exact same amount torwards those operations. However, because Joe Blow only used a fifth as many gallons as Schmoe, why should he pay as much?

A higher gas tax would apply the burden appropriatly to those who use the most gas, allow reduction of income taxes, and spur development away from gasoline at a faster pace.