<Insert Big Trade Proposal Here>

[rascal]

I have a feeling that most of the FO and Spurs fans thought Dice would be enough.

I did not. He is not starter quality anymore and most should have known that last summer. I thought he could be a solid guy off the bench at most but they still needed a quality starter big.

McDyess is too old now and his serious injury history has sapped some years off his career. Thinking he could log big minutes was a miscalculation from the fo. Thinking he and Bonner can get you over the big guns in the west is a miscalculation from the fo. The frontline issues were still there after the offseason.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Keep Tim, Blair, Hill. Trade whoever else.

Make a run at Bosh

Amen!!! I'd also include Manu but, it looks like his body is over the hill and it may take including Manu in order for another team to take anyone else presently on our squad. Include that old, hard headed, refuses to change with the times Pop in any trade. He gets rid of Haislip today and keeps RJ. Pop gets rid of Bowen and keeps Bogans. We had Scola and Pop sees to it that Houston gets him because he didn't want Holt to go over the limit yet he goes after do nothing bums like RJ & Dice. Time for Pop to fire himself if he doesn't change his style and makes some great trades. If not we will not only not be making a run at Championship #5, we won't even make the playoffs this year or next year. This is the worst Spurs team in the Duncan era.

Pop, you owe it to Tim and Peter Holt.

[DPG21920]

I did not. He is not starter quality anymore and most should have known that last summer. I thought he could be a solid guy off the bench at most but they still needed a quality starter big.

McDyess is too old now and his serious injury history has sapped some years off his career. Thinking he could log big minutes was a miscalculation from the fo. Thinking he and Bonner can get you over the big guns in the west is a miscalculation from the fo. The frontline issues were still there after the offseason.

Who did you think they could have realistically gotten that was better then?

[GooberNuts]

I never said they made mistakes in the off-season. They're making the mistakes NOW, and I've made that abundantly clear.

Exactly - the FO did everything they could to make the team better, and I was looking forward to this season. But it is clear that a combination of things are just not working out for the team- be it nagging injuries, players not meeting expectations, poor rotations and coaching decisions.

The team just doesn't seem to have the chemistry or hunger/sense of urgency to go after the le. Half of having a good defense comes from a desire to be aggressive and committed on that end (granted we also don't have the right personnel to back up that aggressiveness with ability). Hill is the only guy who seems to be going hard on that end with the skill to back it up.

[jermaine]

we don't have the right players for pop's system, not dice, not RJ! WHEN WILL POP GET IT?

We have the right players, Pop just don't know how to use em. When you gettin killed in the paint an you have two 7fts on the bench an you keep puttin in Blair 6-7 Dice 6-9 & Bonner 6-9 with a bad hand, its the coach not the players. The Spurs are to stubborn to trade at this point. Pop still believe we need to be patient so that should let you know we aint. Someone just needs to slap the outta Pop stuck on stupid ass (Timmy). I like Blair but he has no defense like Bonner! RJ is a slasher not a spot up! Dice just wants 20mins off the bench. Ian wants to play& can't even see the court. Your beloved Popavich makes me wanna. Pop-a- !

[DPG21920]

Exactly - the FO did everything they could to make the team better, and I was looking forward to this season. But it is clear that a combination of things are just not working out for the team- be it nagging injuries, players not meeting expectations, poor rotations and coaching decisions.

The team just doesn't seem to have the chemistry or hunger/sense of urgency to go after the le. Half of having a good defense comes from a desire to be aggressive and committed on that end (granted we also don't have the right personnel to back up that aggressiveness with ability). Hill is the only guy who seems to be going hard on that end with the skill to back it up.

So I will ask you, what mistakes are they making now?

[Obstructed_View]

Trade the "soft" speech + smallball for calling up Malik Hairston and playing the players on the roster.

[z0sa]

What free pass? I am saying given the "current" cir stances they need to try and make another move.

You've gone on and on about how spurfan is fickle, yet now you agree we should be making moves. Moves aren't made unless people lose that 'affection', bro, and it doing so doesn't automatically make them fickle like you so easily suggest.

Like MB said - choose something. I know you love debating, but you're either being disingenuous or confusing.

[jag]

The thing is, unless the coach divorces his current marriage with Small Ball(tm), bringing in another big to watch the game from the bench is not going to do absolutely anything.
We alreayd have a roster with:
1) the young promising stud big man who is undersized like Malik rose but knows how to rebound
2) the young athletic big man that shows promise but can't stop fouling people
3) the trusty old vet that has a money jumper but can't stop anybody
4) the situational 3 point shooting big that spaces the floor and rarely does much more
5) the situational shot blocker vet that is only good for that

and until yesterday:
6) the dissed youngster that rebuilt his career in Europe but still can't cut into a rotation

Yet, we play RJ and Roger Mason at PF...

I usually defend the outa Pop, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out what his goal is. At the beginning of the season he said he wanted to go back to placing defense as the foundation. But since then every move he's made with his lineups has been in direct conflict with that.

The Spurs aren't going to go very far playing Suns ball.

[DPG21920]

You've gone on and on about how spurfan is fickle, yet now you agree we should be making moves. Moves aren't made unless people lose that 'affection', bro, and it doing so doesn't automatically make them fickle like you so easily suggest.

Like MB said - choose something. I know you love debating, but you're either being disingenuous or confusing.

No, there is a clear distinction between wanting the team to improve, but understanding things don't always work out and that trades are tough versus jumping off cliffs and overreacting to the point where you are ripping the FO for moves you lobbied for.

[DPG21920]

There is nothing confusing, disingenuous or contradicting about my statement.

[DPG21920]

Also Zosa, I will ask you again: What are the mistakes they are making now?

[z0sa]

No, there is a clear distinction between wanting the team to improve, but understanding things don't always work out and that trades are tough versus jumping off cliffs and overreacting to the point where you are ripping the FO for moves you lobbied for.

I'm not sure anyone actively "lobbied" for the RJ trade due to its nature, though I remember a few suggested its possibility.

And again, I'm not seeing people attacking the FO over the original trade except for a small minority who do it for questionable reasoning. The ship left port with full sails, but the edge of the storm has hit and it only gets worse from here.

Don't we need aid in righting the ship? And what if its the captain's fault we're in this storm anyway (not the FO's moves, but Pop's coaching decisions)?

[TD 21]

I'd prefer to hold Mason out of the deal, but I definitely wouldn't let him be a deal breaker.

Get them thinking? Unless they're dead set against trading Iguodala, I'm not sure they could do better. Mason, more than an expiring contract, would be a useful piece for the notoriously poor outside shooting 76ers. They have one knock down shooter on the roster, Kapono and he's now fallen out of the rotation for the time being. Even Bonner they could potentially use for this same reason. So two guys that they could actually use, a huge expiring contract (Jefferson) that will be a useful asset next season, plus Splitter and a 1st, which are both quality assets. That's a ton of value, just to move an overpaid non-franchise player (Iguodala) AND to get to dump a bad contract (Dalembert) in the process? I don't know if the 76ers could turn this down.

Spurs roster (with this hypothetical trade)

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Iguodala, C- Dalembert, SG- Finley, PG- Parker

Bench: SG- Ginobili, PF- McDyess, PG/SG- Hill, PF- Blair, SG- Bogans, C- Ratliff, SG/SF- Hairston

Inactive: C/PF- Mahinmi

Obviously, they'd need to add depth in the form of another SF-sized swing man who could knock down the three at a good clip and a run of the mill third PG, but as a base that's a strong, clearly defined top eight as a playoff rotation. I'm not big on Finley starting, but with with that starting lineup I'd want a 40% 3 point shooter to stretch the floor.

The Spurs front office needs to be pushing for this trade. This solves virtually everything (theoretically) in one trade.

Look at that eight man playoff rotation. To add to that, the Warriors will probably buy out Bell (if he's healed) and the Spurs could go after him and if not him, then one of the other veterans bound to be available via buy out. As for the third point guard, anybody a cut above a guy like Hart will do. It's mainly just for depth purposes.

[z0sa]

There is nothing confusing, disingenuous or contradicting about my statement.

I disagree but I am just about done with ST for tonight.

[rascal]

Who did you think they could have realistically gotten that was better then?

I would have traded manu for a big (Camby) last year instead of the offer they made.

[DPG21920]

I would have traded manu for a big last year.

So you think Camby instead of Manu gives this team a better chance? Fair enough, but if it did not work out, would that mean the FO sucks?

[DPG21920]

I'm not sure anyone actively "lobbied" for the RJ trade due to its nature, though I remember a few suggested its possibility.

And again, I'm not seeing people attacking the FO over the original trade except for a small minority who do it for questionable reasoning. The ship left port with full sails, but the edge of the storm has hit and it only gets worse from here.

Don't we need aid in righting the ship? And what if its the captain's fault we're in this storm anyway (not the FO's moves, but Pop's coaching decisions)?

Everyone lobbied for a move like RJ+Dice. The players are irrelevant to a certain degree. I think they were good pieces, but I also said from the very beginning that they needed another piece to truly have a chance.

There is definitely a legit beef with Pop, but I was referring to the personnel. What personnel mistakes are being made? I am sure they realize they need to right the ship and make another move, but you can't always get the players you want in this league (i.e. camby)

[z0sa]

I remember everybody lobbying for Sheed/Dyess before last season even ended. However, a crazy trade like the RJ one was only imagined and hoped for, not expected.

[rascal]

So you think Camby instead of Manu gives this team a better chance? Fair enough, but if it did not work out, would that mean the FO sucks?

Yes. Getting a capable true center is key. The spurs have enough offensive fire power to trade Manu now(who has struggled and has been inconsistent all year anyways). Give Hill more minutes at the 2, develope him. He is good. Get Jefferson more looks, more shots, get him more involved in the offense. Get out and run more off Cambys shot blocking and rebounding.

Have Camby concentrate on defense(shot blocking and rebounding) to help Duncan in the paint to take away some of the easy points the opposition has been scoring on the spurs in the paint.

[DPG21920]

Of course no one expected it, because the FO does not act like that. But they answered the call on behalf of Tim and the fans.

I agree another move needs to be made, and I said this the moment the trade and signing of RJ+Dice was made. But that does not mean I will meltdown when things don't turn out.

[DPG21920]

Yes. Getting a capable true center is key. The spurs have enough offensive fire power to trade Manu now(who has struggled and has been inconsistent all year anyways). Give Hill more minutes at the 2, develope him. He is good. Get Jefferson more looks, more shots, get him more involved in the offense. Get out and run more off Cambys shot blocking and rebounding.

Have Camby concentrate on defense(shot blocking and rebounding) to help Duncan in the paint to take away some of the easy points the opposition has been scoring on the spurs in the paint.

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

[rascal]

Everyone lobbied for a move like RJ+Dice. The players are irrelevant to a certain degree. I think they were good pieces, but I also said from the very beginning that they needed another piece to truly have a chance.

There is definitely a legit beef with Pop, but I was referring to the personnel. What personnel mistakes are being made? I am sure they realize they need to right the ship and make another move, but you can't always get the players you want in this league (i.e. camby)

You have to give up enough to get the players you want (i.e. camby). Was manu even mentioned in any trade for Camby? No The spurs almost got camby last year. Had they offered Manu they probably get that deal done.

[rascal]

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

Apparately you do since the spurs have not been able to get a true quality big on the roster with what they want to offer in trades.

[ElNono]

You don't have to give up Manu to accomplish that.

If you're rascal, you do. But I digress, Camby was t available last year, and he's still not available right now. So the point has always been pretty much moot.