Some thoughts on Tony Parker

[Bukefal]

Don't get me wrong I was talking about popularity but I also think that Manu > Tony (not right now obviously). I honestly bealive that Manu at his peak is better than Tony at his and I'm sure most spurs/basketball fans will agree with that thought.

Oh I see im sorry . Yeah, if you look at popularity by Spurs fans, Manu is more loved yes. TP is just a bit hated.

As for these two players by looking at their qualities and as players, It's Parker>Manu . I think that's just reality, whatever your personal love is.

[Parker2112]

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks




P.S.

I don't even need to respond to Parker2112. The Nuggets did that job for me, unfortunately.

And what was all that baloney about sample size then? Hill seems to do poorly with most good pg's on a first assignment, but one thing is for sure he will continue to work, all game, all season. He's shown that to everybody. That is why he has my support.

Look man, there are Parker haters, of which I am not one, and there are Parker homers, of which you are one. For all the great contributions to this board, your lack of objectivity on TP is disappointing.

And your bias comes thru even more with every critical assessment of Ginobili. I have been the first to call Ginobili "tragic johnson" in the past, and I think to call him a tremendous passer is to look at the past season only. He's always tried hard, but he has missed the mark at too high of a clip in the past.

However, he is a motor for our offense when he's out there, and you can't dismiss that so easily with his fg%.

Not only that, but your bias for Parker gets old as well. I am simply trying to present the opposite argument. What would this site be if we couldn't have honest debate? I know you and others here have dealt with TP haters for years, and have developed special sensativities, but maybe we should all recognize the need to "raise the bar," even when the views of others don't necessarily reflect your own.

[Parker2112]

For the record, I think Manu is making a of a PG, and TP will always be a great option at SG, but a liability on D. Manu has been adequate, but not great on D. I would consider a trade for either if the return was worth the cost, and I happen to think Duncan can no longer hold down the rim without help, warranting a look at all options.

I would like to at all costs avoid a rebuilding process, even if that meant trading manu or TP. Call me "objective." Meaning not a homer. Team first.

If either of these two would have shown some loyalty when it came to playing during the summer my views might be different.

And I am excited to see how this season pans out, be it by trade or by progress with our core.

[in2deep]

Let's look at the respective players best years:

2005 Manu: won a championship

2009 Parker: lost in the first round

[Parker2112]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

[Brazil]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

oh god

by the way why your user name is parker2112 ? you must be a portnoy1 troll.

[Kori Ellis]

oh god

by the way why your user name is parker2112 ? you must be a portnoy1 troll.

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.

[Kori Ellis]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

timvp is a much bigger Manu fan than he is a Parker fan, so I don't think he has ever tried to pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault".

[scottspurs]

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili should both retire spurs in my opinion. Why all the hate for TP around here? He was finals MVP for us just a few years ago. Let him rest his foot/ankle and start playing well again before you shove him out the door. Everyone needs to have a little patience and chill out. Parker isn't going anywhere so you tony haters need to learn to love him or at least like him or find a new team to root for.

[Brazil]

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.

Now I'm curious...

[timvp]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.

I come to Parker's defense on ST quite a bit because he has undoubtedly been the most unfairly maligned player in Spurs history. When posters are talking stupid -- like saying TP has been a detriment to the team over the years or that he's no longer the best PG on the team (which has been said countless times over the years) -- then I have to counterbalance those takes. Those type of takes unimpeded just trash up the forum since the anti-Parker contingent is so loud and proud.

But I've also been equally hard on TP. I've ripped him countless times for playing with his NT. I've questioned his All-Star selections. I've called him out for disappearing in fourth quarters and lazy regular season play. I've argued against Parker necessarily being a top five point guard in the NBA. I've advocated trades that included Parker. When asked in the past, I've said Manu is a better player than Parker. I was against Parker being named the Finals MVP. But the Parker hater is a stubborn creature who doesn't read any of that. All they see is someone who doesn't go along with the anti Parker groupthink.

It's just so damn weird that there is a segment of Spurs fans whose existence revolves around hating Parker. I really don't understand it. Parker has his faults but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

[Brazil]

PG spot is always the most comented one, fans love to complain about their PG.

[FromWayDowntown]

but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

It's more than turning a blind eye to it. It's become an affirmative effort in revisionist history to diminish Parker's role and his his importance to what's happened in San Antonio since 2002. It's absolutely baffling.

[Parker2112]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.

I come to Parker's defense on ST quite a bit because he has undoubtedly been the most unfairly maligned player in Spurs history. When posters are talking stupid -- like saying TP has been a detriment to the team over the years or that he's no longer the best PG on the team (which has been said countless times over the years) -- then I have to counterbalance those takes. Those type of takes unimpeded just trash up the forum since the anti-Parker contingent is so loud and proud.

But I've also been equally hard on TP. I've ripped him countless times for playing with his NT. I've questioned his All-Star selections. I've called him out for disappearing in fourth quarters and lazy regular season play. I've argued against Parker necessarily being a top five point guard in the NBA. I've advocated trades that included Parker. When asked in the past, I've said Manu is a better player than Parker. I was against Parker being named the Finals MVP. But the Parker hater is a stubborn creature who doesn't read any of that. All they see is someone who doesn't go along with the anti Parker groupthink.

It's just so damn weird that there is a segment of Spurs fans whose existence revolves around hating Parker. I really don't understand it. Parker has his faults but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

I'll take that at face value and say I was wrong about you Timvp.

Just try and distinguish between the Parker haters and the constructive criticizers who want stops from this team no matter who is on the court. Or no matter who we have to put on the court.

[Chieflion]

PG spot is always the most comented one, fans love to complain about their PG.

It is because it is either the second most important or most important position to fill for a team. Reason why people don't complain about their centers in this era is because all of them practically suck.

[kace]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.

i don't agree Timvp.

I think that you're one of the most unbiased poster here because you don't hesitate to be harsch with player that you like/(over)praised (hill...) or praise players you don't really like when they do well (finley....)

but 95 % of TP fans like manu. TP's fans don't start overreacting threads about TP being the best whatever of the league like manu's ones everytime after a good game. TP's fans don't start manu bashing or trading threads. and TP's fans (95 % of them) never criticized Timvp for being a manu homer.

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.


as for the manu/TP ranking as players, well very delicate question here :

- as overall players/accomplishments : manu > tony
- as NBA players (intrinsic best level reached consistently): tony > manu (and it should be even clearer as the years go on)
- as what they meant to the spurs till now: manu = tony (here again, tony should be ahead of manu at the end of their respective career if they stay with the spurs)

just my opinion.

[Bukefal]

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team.but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

Exactly They are both great players and as a fan I see how both have meant a lot for us and still do.

I do think as players it is; TP > Manu. I see that as reality, not as a thing to bash on Manu. I dont have any hate for Manu, he is loved and very popular among Spurs fans. He is obviously more loved than Parker ( at least, on ST), I just dont get all the Parker bashing and hate, I think that's ridiculous and very undeserved.

[gilmor]

i don't agree Timvp.

I think that you're one of the most unbiased poster here because you don't hesitate to be harsch with player that you like/(over)praised (hill...) or praise players you don't really like when they do well (finley....)

but 95 % of TP fans like manu. TP's fans don't start overreacting threads about TP being the best whatever of the league like manu's ones everytime after a good game. TP's fans don't start manu bashing or trading threads. and TP's fans (95 % of them) never criticized Timvp for being a manu homer.

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.


as for the manu/TP ranking as players, well very delicate question here :

- as overall players/accomplishments : manu > tony
- as NBA players (intrinsic best level reached consistently): tony > manu (and it should be even clearer as the years go on)
- as what they meant to the spurs till now: manu = tony (here again, tony should be ahead of manu at the end of their respective career if they stay with the spurs)

just my opinion.

Ducks has to be the minority 5 % who doesn't like Manu.

I'd like both players but I, like TIMVP, feel that TP is unfairly treated in this forum.

[it's me]

I don’t know what it is but Tony is like…. “easy to dislike” … as for now as a player…. Tony > Manu, and that’s obvious, but if I have to pick a player I enjoy (enjoyed… dude is done by now and should be traded) watching play basketball, I pick Manu over 90% of the league without a doubt. Unfortunately everything comes to an end…. I foresee sort of the same discussion when Tony reaches the 35-36 years of age…. People always forget.

PS: I blame “ST freelance clown” Ducks for contributing the Tony hate cause around here……. I’m sure this poor idiot masturbates from behind with a Tony’s bubble-head.

[hater]

who gives a ?

they both been sucking equally this season.

the Manu fans are living in the past. Manu can be useful but never will be the old manu that could take over games. and the Parker fans think Parker is been doing this for years, he's been great for 1 and 1/2 season, after riding on Duncan's tails and choking in the playoffs for years.

and now they both suck. and I don't see either one recovering to their old self.

oh and the delusional Parker fan's that say Parker is younger so has more upside. Parker has tons of miles on his body. His condition is similar to Manu's at this point.

[ElNono]

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.

You're not "incredibly vocal and omnipresent" whenever somebody says anything about TP?

How many more times do we have to hear what's TP assist/turnover ratio from 82games.com?

[z0sa]

manufan and tonyfan will be gone in 5 years anyway.



Then we can enjoy the Spurs sucking.


Just kidding?
Hopefully.

[portnoy1]

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.

I was never banned. Cant think of a reason I should be either!!!

[portnoy1]

Can you imagine this thread 5 years from now?

portnoy1: Tony doesn't deserve this 8th All Star game appearance. Remeber when he couldn't pass the ball to Jefferson? We shouldn't have let Hill walk last summer.

IMO Tony deserves every allstar appearance he has ever gotten. And he'll no doubt ( If healthy) be in more all star games in the future. From the time I got here I never said Parker was a bad player. He is just not the PG that the SPURS need right now. Can he be? I think so, I seen flashes of what he can do from the PG standpoint. However when is he gonna adjust his game to suit the players around him? Another PG might be able to come in and do that before Tim retires. I would like to see the big 3 retire in a spurs jersey but if someone had to go it would be Parker, not because he is a bad player, because I dont know he can alter his game quick enough to salvage the season and Tims Career.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Exactly They are both great players and as a fan I see how both have meant a lot for us and still do.

I do think as players it is; TP > Manu. I see that as reality, not as a thing to bash on Manu. I dont have any hate for Manu, he is loved and very popular among Spurs fans. He is obviously more loved than Parker ( at least, on ST), I just dont get all the Parker bashing and hate, I think that's ridiculous and very undeserved.

I don't see how and why anyone could make a valid point either way. Manu and Parker have both been very successful and have both helped the Spurs equally and are both equally as good as players, albeit with different peaks and lows obviously. Manu = Parker for the Spurs.

Saying that Tony > Manu is as much homerism as the argie fans' that you're bashing for saying Manu > Parker.