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No trade can change the course of this season significantly.
Several chenges could up the future for good, though.
The Spurs are not a tweak or two from being a contender. They need to make serious changes and in all likely-hood, that won't happen via trade this season. Suggesting that this trade would give the Spurs a shot at a championship is ludicrous.
No trade can change the course of this season significantly.
Several chenges could up the future for good, though.
Any thoughts or plans of trying to save THIS season would be very foolish. About as foolish as their decision NOT to pickup Ian's option. However, that shouldn't perclude them from making this team. Thomas and Salmons are young enough and productive enough that they CAN be part of the eminent rebuilding.
Your other point about Pop is good. He, and the entire FO, need to realize that this team, and their championship window, cannot be saved. Jerry Sloan, who is about as non-tolerant and stubborn as Pop, had to go through the same rebuilding cycle with the Jazz. They had a few tough seasons at or near the bottom, but rebuilt on the fly and now they're back. In fact, they did it relatively quickly because they didn't waste time trying to patch an aging roster.
Pop and the Spurs need to face the obvious and do the same realization too. I'd like to see him continue on coaching too. However if he doesn't have the stomach for the fight, or doesn't have the patience to coach these incoming young players into becoming better players, then he should step-up and step down at the same time.
All that said, the Spurs desparately NEED to do this deal.
You have reading comprehension problems huh? I repeat for the reading impaired: The reason Thomas is not starting is not because he's stupid its because the bulls lucked into finding a guy who's cheaper and almost as good and want to move him to free up salary for a shot at Lebron/Wade/Bosh this summer. Get it yet?
And comparing a Euro without even any post game to one of the most skilled big men in the NBA is funny.
Tou can't really believe that.
I agree with this.
This Tjastal kid cracks me up with how highly he rates TT.
The Bulls are a young team looking for young talent. TT is young and on their team and is getting beaten out by a rookie, and not even a top front line rookie. Gibson is good but not anywhere near great and no way he beats out TT for time if Thomas isn't a complete headcase who just doesn't fit. This is the guy you rubes want to trade our potential cap space and Splitter/ possible lottery pick for? Really? A guy who can't beat out a decent rookie for time on a mediocre team?
What I want to see is a list of FA that the Spurs could use the freed space on by all of these expiring contracts. Also, next year Jefferson becomes a big ass expiring contract that could be valuable to landing a piece that fits.
You don't mortgage your future for a dumpy dumb ass with at ude problems and limited game. If the Spurs just want to be a good team that makes the playoffs but has zero shot at a le then you do stuff like this. If they want a future shot at contending they need to land greatness in the draft, and the only way to do that is to suck now and use your assets wisely to build up.
I think your argument about the Jazz shows that they shouldn't make the deal. Tying up 6 mil in a flawed kid is not the way to rebuild, that would be trying to patch up this season. They need cap space, good 1st round lottery pick or two, and some shrewd dealing/player evals to get back to contending. It will take time but the right moves will pay big dividends. I agree Pop needs to evaluate himself and whether or not he can stomach rebuilding and the intense teaching and patience that will be required.
The difference between teams like the clips, kings, and bucks that always suck and teams that stay on top is the ability to draft talent and sign talent that fit a winning scheme and plan, not just add any talent that seems to be the best available and overpay. Great teams look at what a guy can being to the whole, not just what he can do individually. The Spurs and Pop were masters of this a few years ago. They've abandoned it recently and it has bitten them.
Standing pat for what? Every team with cap space will be vying for services of the big free agent fish. Are you forgetting the reason the Spurs elected to cast their lot with RJ this past summer is because they didn't realistically believe they could be players in that sweepstakes and they felt they needed help now. Besides, there aren't any FA that will be willing to come to SA. Why would they? The Spurs are a declining team with mediocre talent. While other teams are up and coming, the Spurs are clearly headed the other way.
Again, if you're thinking this team needs to simply reload and they'll be able to continue on their championship run, think again. The Big 3 have gotten older and more injury-prone. There's a lot of miles on those wheels and you're seeing the negative affects occur right before your eyes. No longer can you simply expect to put parts around them. This is an old team with and old core of players.
The failed RJ trade has signaled the end of the championship window. Next year Duncan will be 34, Manu will be gone, and RJ likely traded this summer. The expiring contracts are assets. Assets that can and should be used to begin rebuildig with younger, cheaper, more talented players that can be had now - not this summer.
Standing pat, means missing out on young talent and getting older in the process. The Spurs have to acquire their talent via draft and trades. A trade of this type isn't for this year. It's to help build a new core for the next several years. The sooner they start rebuilding, the sooner they can back into contention.
Last night Thomas got 36 minutes off the bench, Gibson 17 in an important EC game for the bulls. I guess Del Negro preferred the "headcase". Amazing how fast your argument went up in flames, might be a new record. You should be proud.
Sorry, Senor Spur, had to reread your take.
+1.
Yes, one game he got minutes. The fact he lost his starting spot at all to a rook is damning enough to stay away, and the way he acts is more reason.
I don't usually say this because most people are at least trying to show some intelligence, but you're re ed. And a huge ass.
Here is chad ford's opinion if anyone cares. I don't want to give up tiago's rights unless it's for something a lot better.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...deWatch-100211
By Chad Ford
ESPN.com
Archive
Where could Amare Stoudemire land before next week's deadline? Let's fire up the Trade Machine!
The NBA trade deadline is one week away, and we're in the proverbial calm before the storm. While trade discussions continue around the league, most GMs are frustrated. Deal parameters remain vague, with teams still overvaluing their assets and undervaluing the assets of others.
As we've seen in past seasons, one big trade can have a domino effect on others. It tends to narrow the options, focus the discussion and turn up the pressure on teams to make moves.
Given the gridlock, perhaps some fresh ideas will help. In that spirit, here are five hypothetical trades that I think could and should happen. While none of these trades have been specifically discussed, to my knowledge, all of them include teams looking to deal and players on the market.
TRADE MACHINE
ESPN.com's Trade Machine breaks down the proposed deal here.
1. Heat-Suns-Bobcats
Miami gets: Amare Stoudemire (from Phoenix), Acie Law (from Charlotte), Stephen Graham (from Charlotte), Ronald Murray (from Charlotte)
Phoenix gets: Michael Beasley (from Miami), D.J. Augustin (from Charlotte), James Jones (from Miami), Dorell Wright (from Miami)
Charlotte gets: Udonis Haslem (from Miami), Daequan Cook (from Miami)
Would Miami do it?
The word out of Miami is that the Heat have been pushing to make a deal. While Miami is considered a potential destination for LeBron James and Chris Bosh this summer if the two become free agents, the danger with doing nothing now is that Dwyane Wade might walk if the team fails to get James, Bosh or another top player or two.
This trade would set up the Heat to go in a couple of directions:
(1) It could be a pre-emptive strike on the free-agent market and still provide the salary-cap space to sign another free agent or two in addition to Stoudemire. If Stoudemire were to opt out of his contract and re-sign with the Heat for a contract starting at $13 million to $15 million, the Heat would still be able to sign one max-level player, such as LeBron James, or a couple of players with a starting salary of $8 million to $10 million.
(2) If Stoudemire were to opt out and leave, the Heat, thanks to this trade, would have enough cap room to sign two max-level free agents, such as James and Bosh.
One dangerous scenario is that Stoudemire could decide not to opt out of his contract, leaving the Heat with more limited resources in the 2010 free-agency market. And of course, they'd be giving up on Beasley, a potent scorer who just turned 21.
Would Phoenix do it?
The Suns have been shopping Stoudemire but want more than just cap relief -- they want assets. This deal would provide a little of both.
Beasley is an athletic 4 who should be able to put up similar numbers to Amare in the Suns' run-and-gun system, or perhaps even better numbers, given the rebounding prowess he showed in college. The Suns would also get Augustin, a young point guard they could groom to eventually take over for Nash. Jones should be able to step right back into the system he left in 2007, and if he doesn't work out, his 2010-11 contract is only partially guaranteed. Wright has upside, and his contract is expiring, giving the Suns options with him, as well.
While I believe the Suns would prefer to add Andre Iguodala and Samuel Dalembert, this might be a better, more affordable deal for them in the long run.
Would Charlotte do it? Augustin has had a disappointing season and fallen out of favor with Charlotte coach Larry Brown. And the Bobcats have been active on the trade market, looking for a power forward who can rebound and defend; Haslem would fit the bill and he's in the last year of his contract. While Cook hasn't become the player the Heat hoped he would, he could see some minutes at the 2 for the Bobcats.
TRADE MACHINE
ESPN.com's Trade Machine breaks down the proposed deal here.
2. Pistons-Jazz-Mavs
Detroit gets: Carlos Boozer (from Utah), Josh Howard (from Dallas), Matt Carroll (from Dallas)
Utah gets: Tayshaun Prince (from Detroit)
Dallas gets: Richard Hamilton (from Detroit), Kwame Brown (from Detroit)
Would Detroit do it?
Yes. The Pistons want to move Prince, but not for expiring contracts -- they want a big man back. The Pistons flirted with the idea of spending their cap space last summer on Boozer, but they started looking in other directions and Boozer decided to stay in Utah. But he would be an ideal addition, assuming he would re-sign with Detroit this summer, now that the team's lack of interior talent has been exposed.
The Dallas part of the equation could happen separately -- to execute a Prince-for-Boozer swap, the Pistons don't need the Mavs. But in any case, moving Hamilton for Howard, who has a nonguaranteed contract for 2010-11, would work well for the Pistons, for whom Hamilton's contract has become an albatross. This trade would give them the opportunity to pursue a free agent this summer. And while they would be reluctant to swallow the three years remaining on Carroll's contract, that's also the length of Hamilton's contract, which they would be shedding.
Would Utah do it?
That's less clear. Jazz GM Kevin O'Connor has rebuffed offers for Boozer that would give the Jazz only cap space, since Boozer himself has an expiring contract. Of course, that means that few teams are willing to give up a lot for Boozer, who could walk away this summer.
The Jazz like Prince, but he has another year on his contract at $11 million, he's been hurt this season and his effectiveness has declined. Still, he's a long, athletic wing who can defend and doesn't need the ball to thrive.
At the moment, the Jazz look like contenders in the West. Will they mess with a good thing? I think it's a 50-50 proposition at this point.
Would Dallas do it?
The Mavs would trade Howard, but they'd prefer to get someone younger than Hamilton in return. They've looked at Kevin Martin, Caron Butler and Andre Iguodala, but so far the Kings, Wizards and 76ers don't want to give up those players for mere cap relief. But Dallas doesn't have its first-round pick this year and owner Mark Cuban has said he's not trading rookie point guard Rodrigue Beaubois -- and the Mavs don't have much else to offer in terms of inexpensive assets. So Hamilton might be the best they can do.
His contract is ugly -- he has $34 million in guaranteed money owed to him over the next three seasons after this one. At the same time, the Mavs would be ridding themselves of the remaining $12 million due Carroll over the next three seasons. Looking at it that way, Dallas would be getting Hamilton for about $7.5 million per year for the next three seasons. While that's not a bargain, he would help them offensively, stepping in as the starting 2-guard and providing another veteran shooter in the backcourt.
TRADE MACHINE
ESPN.com's Trade Machine breaks down the proposed deal here.
3. Bulls-Spurs
Chicago gets: Matt Bonner, Roger Mason, Michael Finley, draft rights to Tiago Splitter
San Antonio gets: John Salmons, Tyrus Thomas
Would Chicago do it?
On the surface, it might seem that the Bulls would get killed in this deal because the Spurs would be getting the two best players in the trade.
But the Bulls have good reason to move Salmons and Thomas, neither of whom is in the team's long-term plans: The Bulls want the cap space such a trade would provide. Chicago can set itself up to be a serious player in free agency this summer, given the appeal of the market and the foundation of Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah.
Bonner and Mason, who have expiring contracts, could contribute this season, and Splitter is a good prospect who could come in and help the Bulls in the middle at some point or become a trade asset. As a former first-round draft pick who has established himself in Europe, he might fit the bill if the Bulls are looking to get talent and/or picks in return for Thomas.
And then, if they can pull off trade No. 4 (see below), the Bulls could be in great position going into the summer shopping season. Chicago could be an attractive destination for the likes of James, Wade and Bosh or, at worst, players like Joe Johnson and David Lee.
Would San Antonio do it?
Maybe. The team needs immediate help, as they get older and fall behind the rest of the West. Both Salmons and Thomas would give the Spurs some younger legs, with Salmons also providing offensive punch and Thomas some defense and rebounding.
Thomas' problems in getting along with his coaches have been well-do ented, but perhaps he would respond better to a coach like Gregg Popovich and a veteran team led by Tim Duncan. If so, Thomas could become a huge asset to the Spurs over the long haul.
The Spurs rarely make trades like this, but I can't think of a better one for them right now.
TRADE MACHINE
ESPN.com's Trade Machine breaks down the proposed deal here.
4. Lakers-Bulls
Chicago gets: Jordan Farmar, Adam Morrison, Josh Powell
Los Angeles gets: Kirk Hinrich
Would the Bulls do it?
John Paxson has been reluctant to give away Hinrich even though he's been in a funk since Derrick Rose arrived. But the time to move him is now. The team would be much better off next summer with the extra cap space, and Farmar would be a serviceable back-up for Rose in the meantime.
If Chicago could pull off this trade and the one above, it would be very much in the running for the top free agents this summer, with perhaps only Miami as well-positioned to enter the market.
Would Los Angeles do it?
Derek Fisher is struggling, Farmar hasn't progressed as the Lakers hoped, and Shannon Brown isn't really a point guard. So the Lakers need an upgrade at point guard and they don't have a lot of good options.
Hinrich might not be ideal, given his protracted offensive slump and sizable contract, but he is a smart player who should be a good fit in the triangle, and he can defend. And who else could the Lakers get? Look around the league and you'll see there doesn't appear to be a good trade partner for the Lakers other than Chicago. The other available point guards -- including Luke Ridnour, Chris Duhon, Ramon Sessions and T.J. Ford -- wouldn't fit as well as Hinrich.
The major concern about Hinrich appears to be the additional two years and $17 million on his contract after this season, which is a lot for a tax-paying team to take on. But are the Lakers really that strapped for cash? Even with the largest payroll in the league, they're still turning a profit.
TRADE MACHINE
ESPN.com's Trade Machine breaks down the proposed deal here.
5. Clippers-76ers
Los Angeles gets: Andre Iguodala, Samuel Dalembert
Philadelphia gets: Marcus Camby, Al Thornton, DeAndre Jordan, Rasual Butler, Mardy Collins, Ricky Davis
Would Los Angeles do it?
The Clippers could just let Camby walk, get under the salary cap, and then attempt to clear more cap space to get a max free agent. Furthermore, as Bill Simmons, J.A. Adande and I have said, the Clippers, on paper, would be a great fit for LeBron James. But that appears to be the furthest thing from LeBron's mind, and the team seems to know it, as general manager Mike Dunleavy continues to talk about making a trade now rather than waiting to see what happens in free agency.
Given that, adding Iguodala and Dalembert might be about as good as it gets for the Clips. Iguodala, in particular, would be a perfect fit as an athletic, multifaceted wing player who can handle the ball or thrive without it while defending at least two positions. Dalembert would be a nice one-year replacement for Camby as an athletic shot-blocker and rebounder to back up Chris Kaman.
The Clippers could become quite a factor in the West in 2010-11, with Iguodala running alongside Baron Davis, Eric Gordon, Kaman and presumably a healthy Blake Griffin.
Would Philadelphia do it?
While the 76ers are looking to move their big contracts, they also want assets in return. In this case, they would get both cap relief and talent.
Thornton and Jordan could step in and help, now and down the road, and this trade would also knock an enormous amount of money off the payroll this summer when the contracts of Camby, Butler, Davis and Collins expire.
To make this deal work, the Sixers would have to waive three players from their current roster to accommodate the extra four players that are coming in the trade, but that's not impossible. They have a number of players with small, one-year deals they could waive.
ESPN Insider Chad Ford
I think alot of Popolagist fans on this site are "Popped". By that term, I mean they've literally taken on the same boring, never take a chance, lameass approach of their beloved coach. So of course they want to stand pat and bury their head in the sand.. it's what Popped would probably do in a situation that required balls.
The Spurs may trade for TT, but it'll be a diaster if they do. He'll suck and continuosly make horrible court decisions and will butt heads with Pop. You think the kid will change his personality and become smarter because an old Tim Duncan is around? People don't just change like that. He'll underachieve and everyone will about it.
Per Chad Ford. Especially note the bolded sentence.
But the Bulls have good reason to move Salmons and Thomas, neither of whom is in the team's long-term plans: The Bulls want the cap space such a trade would provide. Chicago can set itself up to be a serious player in free agency this summer, given the appeal of the market and the foundation of Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah.
Another counterpoint for those wanting the Spurs to "stand pat" and wait for the summer. Players in the NBA talk. Regardless of how or why the RJ acquisition failed, do you really think that bodes well in the Spurs favor?
Pop is a respected coach. The Spurs are certainly a respected organization. However, they're not a glamour organization. Teams will not be tripping over themselves to get to San Antonio.
With so many teams competing for the services of a few players, it's very possible that some teams will be left hanging. See the Detroit Pistons of last year. They eventually spent millions an overpaid for 2 role players (Gordon and Villanueva).
"All dressed up, with a pocket full of money, yet no one to date."
So what, the spurs are underachieving as it is. Might as well shake things up and see what happens.
Hopefully the spus will not trade for these 2 underachieving players and will only make minor adjustments to the roster. I cannot see the spurs dealing splitter since his arrival would help and be very cheap for a legit center. Thomas would would be half season rental and salmons is not as bad with only 5mil owed with 1 more season left on contract.
Spurs are a veteran team. Pop is a veteran coach. That's their job is to coach young players. That's why you have coaches to teach and mold young players. This team and organization certainly have more respect and recent success than Del Negro and the Bulls. If they can't coach TT into becoming a productive player, they can always get ride of him. He's young enough that he'll be a solid enough asset to warrant something in return.
On the other hand, the Spurs have been in such a "win now" mentality, it will certainly be a difficult transition for them. However, at this point they have little choice. THey must face the realization that the run is over and take different steps to get rebuild and get strong.
The Spurs are, if not a coaching change from being a contender, are a coaching philosophy change from being a contender.
Shaking things up for the of it on a bad deal extends how long they will suck. They have to play this smart andonly take on pieces that look like that will fit the overall game plan. Then they need some good draft position and a bit of luck for a year or two to get back up.
The Spits will never entice a super star to sign here. They have to get those in the draft.
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