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  1. #351
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Messi is not at Maradona's level. Not now.

    And that doesn't take anything away from Messi, Maradona was amazing. The real debate is Maradona vs. Pele, which can get interesting.
    Let's not go there

    I don't want to get a migraine

  2. #352
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Let's not go there

    I don't want to get a migraine
    I'm not going to, at least not now, but there are a lot of points that most casual fans don't realize. I just don't think either one was clearly better than the other. It's somewhat interesting that Brazilian Roberto Carlos believes Maradona to be have been better. Of course, I'm not saying either is true, and I'm not going there now, but there are things to consider that aren't necessarily obvious.

  3. #353
    Believe.
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    The real debate is Maradona vs. Pele, which can get interesting.
    Interesting? A 200.000 pages thread without any agreement would not be interesting, imo.

    Maradona was better in some areas of the game. Pele was better in others.
    No point in debating who was better.

    It wouldn´t be fair to Pele, either. Nobody here saw him play except for youtube clips.

  4. #354
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Interesting? A 200.000 pages thread without any agreement would not be interesting, imo.

    Maradona was better in some areas of the game. Pele was better in others.
    No point in debating who was better.

    It wouldn´t be fair to Pele, either. Nobody here saw him play except for youtube clips.
    I agree with all of this.. But then again, there are so many things that we continuously debate about here at spurstalk, religion being the big one, and don't come to a conclusion, due to the nature of what we're debating.

    That's why I've stressed that I don't think it's fair to rank one above the other, for the same reason it's unfair to compare Shaq and Wilt Chamberlain, for instance. Completely different times.

    What we hopefully can agree on in this subject, no matter to which player we who have a natural bias, it's pretty damn close to being impossible to being better at soccer/football/futbol than Maradona and Pele were. It doesn't get much better than that.

    (other than being able to do everything they were able to do on a taller frame for a better aerial threat...which would be freakish in the way Lebron is in basketball to be significantly tall yet shiftier and stronger than everyone)

  5. #355
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Well, the whole world (who saw both playing) except some argentinan think Pele is the greatest, I tend to agree with the whole world. Oh and you cannot say that I don't like or don't know Maradona after my zillion posts about how great Maradona was and how incorrect is to try to begin to compare him to Messi.

    BTW I traveled a lot in Argentina and saw games in the Bombonera. I even found Argentinan saying Pele is the greatest.

    Curiously in Brazil the unanimity is not perfect regarding Pele, there are even few people thinking Maradona is the greatest or even that Garrincha is in reality the best brazilian player ever (most of them being from Rio)

  6. #356
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    I'm not going to, at least not now, but there are a lot of points that most casual fans don't realize. I just don't think either one was clearly better than the other. It's somewhat interesting that Brazilian Roberto Carlos believes Maradona to be have been better. Of course, I'm not saying either is true, and I'm not going there now, but there are things to consider that aren't necessarily obvious.
    Well, the whole world (who saw both playing) except some argentinan think Pele is the greatest, I tend to agree with the whole world. Oh and you cannot say that I don't like or don't know Maradona after my zillion posts about how great Maradona was and how incorrect is to try to begin to compare him to Messi.

    BTW I traveled a lot in Argentina and saw games in the Bombonera. I even found Argentinan saying Pele is the greatest.

    Curiously in Brazil the unanimity is not perfect regarding Pele, there are even few people thinking Maradona is the greatest or even that Garrincha is in reality the best brazilian player ever (most of them being from Rio)
    Brazilian Antonio Careca, who played with Maradonna at Napoli, believes his former teammate was better than Pele



    IMHO, Pele was better

  7. #357
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    IMO, the pele vs maradona debate comes down to...

    1) Maradona went to europe while Pele stayed in brazil
    2) Pele always played on stacked teams, club and national
    3) Pele was physically a monster while Maradona was short and stocky. Its like the difference between say, Lebron and Bird (ok, maybe not THAT pronounced!)

    for those reasons, I like maradona more, but I respect those who prefer Pele, though I find often times Pele supporters turn the argument to their personal lives, which IMO is not only not fair, but not quite the black-white winner they think it is.

  8. #358
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    IMO, the pele vs maradona debate comes down to...

    1) Maradona went to europe while Pele stayed in brazil
    2) Pele always played on stacked teams, club and national

    3) Pele was physically a monster while Maradona was short and stocky. Its like the difference between say, Lebron and Bird (ok, maybe not THAT pronounced!)

    for those reasons, I like maradona more, but I respect those who prefer Pele, though I find often times Pele supporters turn the argument to their personal lives, which IMO is not only not fair, but not quite the black-white winner they think it is.
    That's why Pele is annoying for always bringing up his 1,000 career goals when LOL he played at a time where scoring was higher, especially in Brazil and the american league, while Maradona took a regular ass nobody team in a very tough league, during a time period where on top of that defenses were stronger (not as much emphasis in attack as it was in Pele's era), and did great things with that team. And it's not like I believe Pele wouldn't have been able to do what Maradona did, this is just why I don't like saying one is greater than the other.

    Anyway, the way those two argue about eachother constantly is annoying...and Pele almost seems insecure/childish to always be making stupid comments to flaunt himself. And obviously, I'm not gonna get into Maradona's personality, lol.

  9. #359
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I don't see the link with Napoli. The fact he failed with Barcelona decreases the value of what he did with Napoli ?
    Well, it seems to me that you're trying to dismiss what Messi does with Barcelona because he supossedly has better teammates and plays in a easier league, I just brought Maradona's Barcelona's days to prove that having better teammates or playing in an easier league not always means that you're going to win.

  10. #360
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Well, the whole world (who saw both playing) except some argentinan think Pele is the greatest, I tend to agree with the whole world. Oh and you cannot say that I don't like or don't know Maradona after my zillion posts about how great Maradona was and how incorrect is to try to begin to compare him to Messi.

    BTW I traveled a lot in Argentina and saw games in the Bombonera. I even found Argentinan saying Pele is the greatest.

    Curiously in Brazil the unanimity is not perfect regarding Pele, there are even few people thinking Maradona is the greatest or even that Garrincha is in reality the best brazilian player ever (most of them being from Rio)
    I'm not going to get in the Maradona/Pele argument 'cause like I said I didn't see either of those guys play at their primes (from Pele I haven't even seen full recorded games), but what you say there is just not true. When FIFA awarded the "FIFA of the century player" the World gave Maradona the award by a big margin, then FIFA came with the ridiculous idea of dividing the award so they wouldn't left their good boy empty handed, but the people gave Maradona the award.

    I would like to see where you got your "people that saw both players" argument, there was a poll somewhere or something like that? All the people I know that have seen both players play say that Maradona was better, lots of them aren't Argentines.

  11. #361
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Well, the whole world (who saw both playing) except some argentinan think Pele is the greatest, I tend to agree with the whole world. Oh and you cannot say that I don't like or don't know Maradona after my zillion posts about how great Maradona was and how incorrect is to try to begin to compare him to Messi.

    BTW I traveled a lot in Argentina and saw games in the Bombonera. I even found Argentinan saying Pele is the greatest.

    Curiously in Brazil the unanimity is not perfect regarding Pele, there are even few people thinking Maradona is the greatest or even that Garrincha is in reality the best brazilian player ever (most of them being from Rio)
    Notice how the whole post is con uously vague? that's the mark of person who's talking out of his ass.

    @ "the whole world" bull argument. Who's the whole world?

    God knows I dislike Maradona, but your argument is complete and utter rubbish, specially since you post no legitimate reasons why you like Pele over Maradona other than some random generalization you got from god knows where.

    oh but you certainly managed to insert your "except a few Argentinians" disclaimer to invalidate any dissenting opinion an Argie might have on the matter. Congrats!

  12. #362
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Anyway, let's get this thread back on track.


  13. #363
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    Anyway, let's get this thread back on track.

    its a greek team man, nothing to boast about his performance

  14. #364
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    its a greek team man, nothing to boast about his performance
    Exactly

    Anybody can on KBP

  15. #365
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    I would like to see where you got your "people that saw both players" argument, there was a poll somewhere or something like that? All the people I know that have seen both players play say that Maradona was better, lots of them aren't Argentines.
    Yes there are polls about that and a lot by the way. One of them has been made by l'équipe (french newspaper). The result was 1. Pele, 2. Cassius Clay, 3. Lewis, 4. Owens, 5. Fangio, 6. Jordan etc... There were a lot of these polls during the year 2000 and the results were quite the same with Cassius being the number 1 and Pele being number 2.

    Of course, polls, studies etc... have their flaws but most of them confirm Pele being the greatest footballer ever.

  16. #366
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    That's why Pele is annoying for always bringing up his 1,000 career goals
    pele is a liar, because his official (FIFA) goals scored is 643, and that even includes a lot of low level compe ion.

    the IFFHS, which is more rigourous on this, gives him 541.

    they have puskas at 558 (he doesnt come up in the best all time argument despite this, but in actuality he should, a great great player)

    but the top scorer of all time is the world reknown Josef Bican, with 805 official and 1468 unofficial goals.

  17. #367
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    lol @ thread turning into Maradona vs. Pele.

  18. #368
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    lol @ thread turning into Maradona vs. Pele.
    Abedi Pele?

  19. #369
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Yes there are polls about that and a lot by the way. One of them has been made by l'équipe (french newspaper). The result was 1. Pele, 2. Cassius Clay, 3. Lewis, 4. Owens, 5. Fangio, 6. Jordan etc... There were a lot of these polls during the year 2000 and the results were quite the same with Cassius being the number 1 and Pele being number 2.

    Of course, polls, studies etc... have their flaws but most of them confirm Pele being the greatest footballer ever.
    Seriously? There're polls where only old people can vote to determine which sportsmen were the best?

  20. #370
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Notice how the whole post is con uously vague? that's the mark of person who's talking out of his ass.

    @ "the whole world" bull argument. Who's the whole world?

    God knows I dislike Maradona, but your argument is complete and utter rubbish, specially since you post no legitimate reasons why you like Pele over Maradona other than some random generalization you got from god knows where.

    oh but you certainly managed to insert your "except a few Argentinians" disclaimer to invalidate any dissenting opinion an Argie might have on the matter. Congrats!
    Dude, can you just chill out a little bit ?

    First I said I tend to agree, I'm not doing a strong case about this debate.

    Second as I already said, I've just seen some highlights of Pele so I'm not saying I'm an expert. So yeah I'm talking out of my ass, so what ?

    Third it's extremely hard to compare two players of different times, so yeah I made some generalization coming from the fact I live in Brazil so I can have an opinion on what Brazilian think about that and I worked a lot in Argentina (Cordoba and Buenos Aires), I watched various games in Argentina, I have some friends there and I'm a fan of Maradona, I think I can give my 2 cts about what some Argentinan can think (the ones I know).

    But as you seem to be an expert by calling me out, why don't you share with us your wised opinion on that subject ?


    on a side note: posters calling out other posters with names for whatever reasons are annoying as . You could have said the same thing with a "I think you're generalizing too much.... see not that difficult to be educated even on a spurs board".

    I know your next post will be butthurt a frenchie having an opinion on what Argentinan think but I'm pessimist maybe I'll be pleasantely surprised

  21. #371
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Seriously? There're polls where only old people can vote to determine which sportsmen were the best?
    DAF I'm not saying that all the polls are legit and that the guys are voting for the good reasons. I'm just saying the vast majority of these polls, studies, opinions ... tend to say that Pele > Maradona and that Pele is on the top 3 of the athlete of the century XX with owens and cassius clay.


    Maybe one of the reason why Pele has the edge in people's mind, is because he is like a pioneer: one of the first football player known in the whole world. The 1958 cup transformed him in a legend through newspapers.

  22. #372
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Wadle>Pele

  23. #373
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Sure sure

    And Manu Amoros >>>>>> Garrincha

  24. #374
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    Sure sure

    And Manu Amoros >>>>>> Garrincha
    Lefty you know about football what a sucker ah ah ah

    Di Meco >>>>>>>>>>>> Garrincha >> Amoros

    Don't tell me Garrincha is better than Di Meco you never saw Garrincha playing. ah ah ah

  25. #375
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Lefty you know about football what a sucker ah ah ah

    Di Meco >>>>>>>>>>>> Garrincha >> Amoros

    Don't tell me Garrincha is better than Di Meco you never saw Garrincha playing. ah ah ah
    Di Meco

    Damn I forgot about him
    Last edited by lefty; 09-17-2010 at 01:09 PM.

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