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  1. #1276
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    sorry but Cruyff is a legend
    Nah, WC or bust. The sole decider of greatness/legendary status is the WC.
    Very similar to the ring count with NBA legend status.

    Bill Russell > Robert Horry > Michael Jordan
    Derek Fisher > Tim Duncan > LeBron James


    These are simply indisputable, only important statistic in basketball and soccer is the ring count and WC count respectively.

  2. #1277
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    What's surprising here is that some assumed soccer fans are perpetuating the "Messi had a poor WC" myth, when every true soccer fan knows that it isn't a sport like baseball where you can infer a lot about a particular player's quality based solely on statistics. Almost all "analysts" helped feed it by talking about Messi's 0 goals. Anyone who actually watched Argentina's games would know Messi did not play poorly. He played well, unfortunately he didn't score. He had to do everything with that top heavy team that was basically a bunch of forwards with horrible defenders. He played much deeper compared to his role at Barcelona where the midfielders actually do their jobs, quite well obviously. Wasted all of his energy taking the ball everywhere for that team.

    How is Messi not going to be top 5? You're telling me there were 5 more skilled players?

  3. #1278
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    he didn't play bad at all, but to me he declined his level of play through the cup. He's played much worse outside the WC for argentina, so a lot of the rep, which is obviously blown out of proportion by haters, comes from that. not scoring goals (fact!) obviously didnt help sway the perception.

    But he is playing amazingly well right now, he's improved in just about every way possible left for him and as for DAF's hypothetical, Argentina can't win a WC without Messi playing amazing. Its not about goals scored, its about legend. For example: what is C Ronaldo's most iconic goal? Probably some freekick, because penalties suck as highlights unless missed pk's count. Messi, you can think of several; the one against arsenal where he flicked it up as the keeper came out, or the 2nd goal against madrid in the semis a year back; there's a ton more but those are among his best (add an entire reel for his last game against uruguay).

    Maradona doesnt have the best stats, but he has the best legend. Its similar to Jordan in certain respects, as there are others with more rings, or more points scored, or better all around stats. But Jordan is remembered/sold on his winning story. Same with Di Stefano, Cruyff, Garrincha, and others. And of course there are players, like C Ronaldo and Pele, who despite being great have terrible stories and a lot people like me only resentfully respect them (a la kobe and shaq).

  4. #1279
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    What terrible stories do Ronaldo and Pele have? What am I missing?

  5. #1280
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    And regarding Messi's legend. He can retire tomorrow and he will still be remember for the rest of planet's Earth existance. He's the favorite player of millions and millions of people around the World and they all will remember how much he dominated. He has done many many things that will go down in history (like being the only player to score 5 goals on a Champions league match, winning three -soon to be 4- consecutive golden balls, scoring the most goals in a season by any player ever, some incredible goals, etc) but if anything he will surely go down in history for being the best player of arguably the greatest team in the history of the sport.
    Last edited by DAF86; 10-31-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  6. #1281
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    diego, how could you forgot Messi's goal vs Getafe from several years back that mirrors Maradona's "Goal of the Century"?

  7. #1282
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    diego, how could you forgot Messi's goal vs Getafe from several years back that mirrors Maradona's "Goal of the Century"?

  8. #1283
    I don't have limits sonic21's Avatar
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    You know that if he plays so-so for Argentina but they end up winning the WC, everybody will say how much of a legend he is and how he lead his team to the championship when in fact he wouldn't have done anything special. It has happened before with a lot of players.
    true, if he scores 2 goals in a WC final, it's enough. Zidane had an average WC, but everyone remember his two goals. On the other end baggio had one of the best WC performance ever but he's not considered a legend. Everyone only remember his penalty miss which is a shame coz he's a better player than zidane.

  9. #1284
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    baggio coz he's a better player than zidane.
    Not sure if serious...

  10. #1285
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    And regarding Messi's legend. He can retire tomorrow and he will still be remember for the rest of planet's Earth existance. He's the favorite player of millions and millions of people around the World and they all will remember how much he dominated. He has done many many things that will go down in history (like being the only player to score 5 goals on a Champions league match, winning three -soon to be 4- consecutive golden balls, scoring the most goals in a season by any player ever, some incredible goals, etc) but if anything he will surely go down in history for being the best player of arguably the greatest team in the history of the sport.
    now you are reaching brah

    Every generation has his stories, you have absolutely no idea if this team will be considered near anything close to be the greatest team in the history of sport same for Messi.

    First you should limit yourself to football, arguably the greatest team in the history of football sounds already more reasonable. FC Barcelona is known to produce "dream teams" during its history, no one can deny that the late 80's early 90's was dominated by the Barcelona of Cruyff with great players like Guardiola, Bakero, Koeman, Laudrup, Romario, Romario and Stoichkov... your generation doesn't even know how good these guys were. The 70's Ajax of Amsterdam is still considered as the best team ever by a lot of people. What about Manchester of the 90's ? Is this FC Barcelona better than these teams ? we will never know. Is the FC Barcelona of Xavi will be part of the discussion ? probably but we don't know yet

    At the time of Zidane's dominance Juve + Real, a lot of people were saying that he will be considered a top 5 in the history. Is that the case today ? not so much even after his trophy in a WC. We are today in a world just thinking about the present, we over hype everything and that's a fact son.

    So no if Messi retires tomorrow you have no clue of what will happen to his legend. One sure thing is his legend will be ensured, reinforced by a dominant WC.

  11. #1286
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I didn't say the "greatest team in the history of sports" I said the "greatest team in the history of THE sport" meaning the greatest team in the sport of football.

    And no, I can't speak of teams I didn't see but I can listen to guys that did and most of them say that Barca is the best they have ever seen. Besides there are these little things called facts that we have argued here and this Barca team accomplished a feat that no other team in history has: winning all the tournaments that they have played on a season. This "fact" is a pretty important one, tbh.

    And I'm old enough to have seen Zidane's entire career and he was never trully argued as a top 5 guy all-time. In fact many people didn't even considered him the best player of his generation, many (for not saying most) thought Brazilian Ronaldo was the best player of that generation.

  12. #1287
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Not sure if serious...
    Dude, you overrate Zidane. Know it.

  13. #1288
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    Brazil, pretty sure DAF was just talking about soccer...not all sports, when he said:

    the best player of arguably the greatest team in the history of the sport


    And IMO the Barca team from 2 seasons ago was likely one of the best ever in history, this Barca generation in general has been phenomenal, and they would likely beat most of the other great historic teams of the sport. It's just a matter of advancement of the game, like all other sports. They're all comparable relative to their own compe ion from their time, but in general players are better, more physically gifted, etc. now compared to say the 60s.

    In NBA, the 60s Celtics were great, lead by Bill Russell. They'd probably get killed by early 2000s Lakers or current Miami Heat. And that's not saying the newer teams are better compared to their compe ion, it's saying in absolute terms they are more dominant. No one from that age could cover Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and certainly not LeBron and Wade either.

    In a similar way, I would expect this current Barca squad at its peak to beat the majority of previous legendary teams, if they were to play several times. They'd win on average.

  14. #1289
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    Brazil, pretty sure DAF was just talking about soccer...not all sports, when he said:





    And IMO the Barca team from 2 seasons ago was likely one of the best ever in history, this Barca generation in general has been phenomenal, and they would likely beat most of the other great historic teams of the sport. It's just a matter of advancement of the game, like all other sports. They're all comparable relative to their own compe ion from their time, but in general players are better, more physically gifted, etc. now compared to say the 60s.

    In NBA, the 60s Celtics were great, lead by Bill Russell. They'd probably get killed by early 2000s Lakers or current Miami Heat. And that's not saying the newer teams are better compared to their compe ion, it's saying in absolute terms they are more dominant. No one from that age could cover Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and certainly not LeBron and Wade either.

    In a similar way, I would expect this current Barca squad at its peak to beat the majority of previous legendary teams, if they were to play several times. They'd win on average.
    I think you overall missed my point. Of course there is no such a thing to say Barca 89 would beat Barca 12. I'm just saying that before crowing a team best ever or a player best ever you need to put things in perspective and not being mislead by the media hype of the moment. I'm old enough to see the hype around a player or a team fading as quick as it comes (Laudrup, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Gulit...). The next generation will have their superstar and in their mind this superstar will be the biggest thing ever. Few players overcome that, Maradona, Pele, Garrincha, Cruyff..., for Messi it's too soon to tell. So saying if Messi retired tonight he will be remembered forever as one of the top 5 goat is at best silly especially without a great WC.

  15. #1290
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    oh and for THE sport. point taken

  16. #1291
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    I think you overall missed my point. Of course there is no such a thing to say Barca 89 would beat Barca 12. I'm just saying that before crowing a team best ever or a player best ever you need to put things in perspective and not being mislead by the media hype of the moment. I'm old enough to see the hype around a player or a team fading as quick as it comes (Laudrup, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Gulit...). The next generation will have their superstar and in their mind this superstar will be the biggest thing ever. Few players overcome that, Maradona, Pele, Garrincha, Cruyff..., for Messi it's too soon to tell. So saying if Messi retired tonight he will be remembered forever as one of the top 5 goat is at best silly especially without a great WC.
    I get your point . And I certainly agree, but I don't the opinions here are mutually exclusive. Well...maybe yours and DAFs are almost. But I think it's fair to say Messi appears to be on the way to legend status. He is smashing all of the records at a very young age...he's 25! He's got another decade left. Literally all that's missing is a WC and he would essentially have a PERFECT resume. He would have won everything there is to win, most of things several times (league, champs league, individual awards), and doing so in such convincing fashion. Of course he plays for Barca but he's shattering a lot of individual records, and he's not strictly a one-dimensional CF who is always at the right place at the right time knocking in goals. He scores amazing goals constantly and creates a ton of them as well.

    If he doesn't win a WC but continues to produce similar seasons as he has in the past 3 years (or even a moderate drop), he's still at the very least on Cruyff's level. If he wins a WC, I don't see how he isn't up with Pele and Maradona.

  17. #1292
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    If Messi continues his progression he will end up being the all-time top scorer in La Liga, Champions League and Argie NT- That's as big a legend as it gets, tbh.

  18. #1293
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    If Messi continues his progression he will end up being the all-time top scorer in La Liga, Champions League and Argie NT- That's as big a legend as it gets, tbh.
    I don't even think he needs to continue at his current rate to do those things. He could drop some in production and the above would still probably hold. He's ing 25.

  19. #1294
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    diego, how could you forgot Messi's goal vs Getafe from several years back that mirrors Maradona's "Goal of the Century"?
    i didnt mention it on purpose, because its so inferior to maradona's that it doesnt reflect messi well. one in WC quarters against the invaders army, the other vs some no name team in a meaningless league match. Messi has better goals than that one.

    Messi is doing great and he has to keep it up. But what DAF doesnt understand, is that he isnt guaranteed goat status on what he's done so far. When people talk about dominant players and WC elimination games come up, right now there isnt much to say for messi, and like it or not for most that is the biggest stage. Players like Hagi or Stoichkov or even Forlan have been able to have strong memorable performances w/o even making the final, so its not like people are asking for something impossible and I fully expect him to do it, but until he does...

    perception is tricky, and all kinds of things can change it, many of them very far removed from messi's actual skill/style/performance on the pitch. But if people think you're soft or stupid or arrogant or greedy or lazy etc etc then you can go from best ever to crap in 2 seconds. It can even happen after the playing career is over, that some scandal changes people perception of a player.

    Maradona is messi's best comparison precisely because of perception, on stats messi has maradona beat, but people perceive maradona to be better because of WC success but also because of the under dog, anti-hero image of Maradona which is a large contrast with clean humble messi who has never been an underdog at Barca.

    Maradona is basically Allen iverson, but instead of losing to the lakers he beat them (several times). Can you imagine if AI had beat shaq and kobe, how it would have changed people's perception of him? Now, remember the hype AI had during all of that. Now where do people rank him? Not only did he lose to the lakers, he played like in the olympics, and became a cancer in multiple teams. AI went from being a shoo-in as one of the best guards all time to barely one of the best in his generation.

    Messi's perfect resume doesnt have a good story in it DAF. Its boring. No one can deny he is a huge part of a great team, but when a team is that great for that long it takes away from the players' legacy more than it adds on. For a casual fan, its very difficult to recognize when Messi became the "man" at barca, when he pushed them to success, because they were already successful when he was starting and because they've been constantly hiring top players during his span there (for the record, i think he is the key to their sucess in the past 4 years, definitely). The big match to watch are the clasicos, and while I applaud messi for being dominant and/or clutch in these games, the rival sucks. Ronaldo + xabi alonso + pepe/ramos is no match for messi + xavi + pique/puyol, and so it surprises no one they beat them on the regular.

    In that sense I disagree with Alvarez, I think this barca team if you put it in late 80's Italy it would struggle with the size and power of that era's teams (especially, AC milan). they would at the very least make the barca small ball style sweat bullets. even early 2000 madrid would be a handful for them, do you think they'd get away with playing mascherano as a fullback against Ronaldo and Raul? they'd eat him alive, and they're not the only ones who would. which ever way you slice it, there is no clear rival for barca to overcome beyond madrid and maybe chelsea or man U.

  20. #1295
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    So Real Madrid sucks now?

    They have the best coach in the World (and one that will go down as one of the best in history) and the only player in the World that is capable of coming close to Messi's production, add to that the historic Barca-Madrid confrontation and the extra drama of this last era and these clasicos will surely go down in history for everyone to remember.

    Let me add that Real Madrid would be the favorite to win the WC over any national team, tbh.

    Look, no matter how you guys slice it Messi is a legend and will be remember by most accordingly. I'm done debating this just wait and see.
    Last edited by DAF86; 11-01-2012 at 10:55 PM.

  21. #1296
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    Dude, you overrate Zidane. Know it.
    I don't think so. Is this one of your famous "facts"?

    And surely, Messi will be a legend when it's all said and done, how big? No one knows...

  22. #1297
    Ur a fkn wanker Venti Quattro's Avatar
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    Thiago Messi has been born. Arsene must be throwing a party somewhere right now.

  23. #1298
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    Besides there are these little things called facts that we have argued here and this Barca team accomplished a feat that no other team in history has: winning all the tournaments that they have played on a season. This "fact" is a pretty important one, tbh.
    I was watching the game when I posted before so I let this slide. It makes a huge difference how you define a season in order to make this comment, and even then it doesnt say anything without detail. Its obviously not the same to win long/difficult compe ions than 1 game cups, especially depending on the quality of the opponent in that cup. Is going 3/3 better than going 4 of 5? Etc.

    But with all that said, Barcelona is neither the only team to have gone "perfect" (done a long ass time ago and many times since, including one team going undefeated in all 4 compe ions just in 2005) nor the team to have had the most les in one "season" (also done a long ass time ago, 7 to barca's sextuple which depending on how you define "season" may not actually be a sextuple (all the les correspond to 2009, but they were played between august 2008 and december 2009, more than a year). This is the typical category that good teams from crappy leagues dominate, I'm not sure what kind of difference it should make if a dominant team loses a community shield or super copa de españa to a crap one.



    So i guess its a good thing you used quotation marks around that pretty important "fact".


    as for madrid, I guess you'd have to poll their fans but I would guess this is isnt even their 4th best team all time. They may not suck in the pedestrian sense, but they will be remembered more for their cheap shots and penalties than for superb play.

  24. #1299
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Giving that Madrid last season broke La Liga's record on points and goals scored I say that Madrid fans are pretty pleased with their team and rank them pretty high on the all-time list, tbh. If it wasn't for this once in a lifetime Barca team who knows what else this Madrid team could have done.

    And regarding the Barca thing, sorry I should have said teams that mattered. Either way I was looking to see which team won 7 les on a season and I couldn't find it, all I could find was this:

    http://www.marca.com/2009/12/19/futb...261249352.html

    Hasta ahora ningún equipo había conseguido seis títulos en una misma temporada. El que más cerca había estado de estos registros era el Manchester United con cinco en la 98/99. Entonces el club inglés se hizo con la Premier League, la Copa, la Champions, la FA Cup y la Copa Intercontinental. Se le resistieron la Community Shield, en la que cayó en la final por 2-1 frente al Arsenal, y la Supercopa de Europa que se llevó la Lazio, último campeón de la Recopa de Europa, por la mínima.
    So far no other team had won six les on a season. Manchester United came close in 98/99 winning the Champions league, the premier league, the FA cup and the Interconental cup. They lost the Community Shield and the Supercup.
    So if you can provide which team won 7 les on a season I will appreciate it. Thanks in advanced.

  25. #1300
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