Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

[Wild Cobra]

And why should someone be pull over just because of what he looks like?.

Can you show me where that is what the law says to do?

Some guy provided his Liscence and his Social Security but that wasn"t enough, so he got arrested. Thats bull , why should someone who looks hispanic need to carry extra papers because of his looks?

What was he arrested for? It's also possible he just came across a cop who abuses their authority. That will happen regardless of the law. It's happened to me before. I have white skin, blond hair, but not the blue eyes. They're olive colored.

Bad cops will do bad things, regardless of the law.

[LnGrrrR]

I really don't know what world lngrrr is from. Cops pull people over and ransack their cars looking for drugs all the ing time - it's happened to me over leaving my brights on. Entire interwoven - and legal - plots to seize money and possessions without an intention on returning them occur when one owns enough and doesn't work the political landscape to the local likings.

Then you gave up your rights. You don't have to let them search your car... if you choose to waive your rights, that's your issue.

Legally, cops can't search your vehicle for drug without probably cause, which doesn't include speeding or other minor traffic violations. Now, if cops see paraphernalia in the car, or the dogs smell something, then they have generated probable cause. Although if the dog isn't on-hand, you're not obliggated to "wait" for it to show up; it has to take place within the time limit allotted for the traffic stop.

And they can only inspect the visible portions of your car. Why do you think cops ask you to open up your glovebox compartment? They're not allowed to do it themselves legally.

Now, is it SMART to give the cop a hard time? I'd say not; the great majority (95%+) are just trying to do their job without being shot by some hood/junkie. But if a cop tries to be a , you're within your rights to refuse him searching you.

In the same vein, they can't ask you to disrobe or anything to check you for illegal possessions, though a slight frisk is considered legal.

And of course, there's a "gray area" which you allude to... implying that yes, cops bend the rules sometimes and use their power incorrectly. Given this view of yours, why are you in favor of giving them another law that could be interpreted in an incorrect manner?

[LnGrrrR]

long post about SCOTUS decision.

If the "reasonable" and "probable" causes are similar to the case cited, where people were near the border at strange times with backpacks full of supplies, I'm ok with that.

I just don't think being pulled over and looking brown is a "reasonable" su ion of being an illegal immigrant, and would like the law to be written as clearly as possible to prevent abuses that would lead to those situations.

[LnGrrrR]

Bad cops will do bad things, regardless of the law.

Which in no way means we should not be writing the most clear, concise and CORRECT laws that we can. That way when bad cops DO cross the line, the standards are clear and they can't claim ignorance as to the wrongness of their deeds.

[boutons_deux]

"when bad cops DO cross the line"

... they almost never get caught, because the police force will close ranks around their criminal colleague and it becomes "policeman said" vs "victim said", and we know who wins that.

[Duff McCartney]

So? If, during a lawful contact (however, you want to define it), a peace officer discovers -- upon reasonable su ion -- a crime and enforces the relevant law, what's the problem?

What is reasonable su ion in this case? What could cause a police officer to reasonably suspect someone of being an illegal?

[Yonivore]

What is reasonable su ion in this case? What could cause a police officer to reasonably suspect someone of being an illegal?

See earlier post:

"...the Supreme Court held there had to be other articulable factors which formed a reasonable su ion under a 'totality of the cir stances' test."

I'm guessing, whatever is the "reasonable su ion," it will have to be "articulable" and, pass an established test set in case law and prior U. S. Supreme Court rulings.

[jack sommerset]

It's not like looking for a needle in a hey stack. Ask for a ID and if you have that, move on. If you don't, you better have mommy come down to the station with it.

[ChumpDumper]

it will have to be "articulable" and, pass an established test set in case law and prior U. S. Supreme Court rulings.

In other words, you have no idea.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hey dumper of chumps


instead of dumping chumps, for one second can you give an opinion? What do you think about this bill?

I'm still totally undecided. I see both sides. Kind of leaning in favor of the new law, actually.

[ChumpDumper]

It looks a step on the road to a national ID. Big government types like Yoni should rejoice.

Does it do anything to criminalize the hiring of illegals? If not, it's not going to be very effective.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It looks a step on the road to a national ID. Big government types like Yoni should rejoice.

Does it do anything to criminalize the hiring of illegals? If not, it's not going to be very effective.

Seems like every single thing ever enacted these days fits the old "slippery slope" description.

So alot of times I try to look at these things without that aspect in mind to see what I'd think then. If that makes sense. I don't think it warrants all the the left is giving it. I also don't like the left whoring itself out to minorities more and more because its just setting us up for a huge racial backlash from both sides in the future. I'm sick of the continuing polarization of the voting public in this country.

But I do agree, the only real way to truly get anything done on illegal immigration is to go closer to the source. That means employers and the border itself.

[jack sommerset]

But I do agree, the only real way to truly get anything done on illegal immigration is to go closer to the source. That means employers and the border itself.

If you think asking for a ID is a problem, wait until they enforce those 2 points!

[NFGIII]

I've read through most to the posts and so far I'm still undecided about what to really do about this situation. And I do agree that this, as with many other laws being passed recently, could be viewed as "slippery slope" situations.

On the one hand we have a state that is one of the biggest if not the biggest entry point for illegals in this country. Though I'm sure that their cheap labor has resulted in lower prices to a certain degree I'll also be willing to bet that the social costs...ie...crime. hospital. educational..etc...and the resulting increases in taxes to provide those services would probably be greater but haven't seen any research on this subject so it's MHO. It seems that the majority of the citizens in AZ are fed up with illegal immigration and want to do something about it. And frankly I can't blame them and what do you think the love ones and friends of Rob Krentz feel at this moment concerning illegals(assuming that he was indeed shot and kiiled by an illegal alien and possible drug smuggler, which hasn't been determined from what I was able to read)?
Should the citizens of AZ just endure this and wait for the Feds to finally do something? Or do they have a right to dictate what goes on in their state and especially how it effects their lives and personal safety?

But on the other hand it is a situation that will most likely lead to abuse and the law being misinterpreted. Though the law specially states that profiling can't be used you can bet it will be. It's only human nature for it to be used. IMO What is the percentile of Hispanics crossing the border into AZ illegally? Would you think it is extremely high, say 80 - 90+ %? I would think it very high and if I was a law enforcement person and I saw a bus load of Hispanic looking people who upon seeing me started to avoid me like the plague I probably would start paying close atention to their actions. Is that profiling or just common sense? I'm sure many will come down on both sides of the issue.

So to me their is ambiguity in this law that needs further defining. Maybe the way to do that would be for cases to hit the courts and the judges stepping in and defining this. And I do believe that American citizens of Hispanic ethnicity will be pulled over, questioned, in some cases harrassed, other cases arrested and jailed and horror stories will certainly come forth. But how does a society come up with laws that are fair, protect all citizens cons utional rights and confront the issue adequately without anyone being ill effected by it's implementation? Come up with that answer and you can pretty much write your own ticket in politics.

So on the one hand I see citizens of AZ fed up and trying to do something but on the other hand passing a law that will most certainly lead to abuse of the cons utional rights of a particular segment American citizens.

One way to deflect some of the criticism would be for the state of AZ to hire and/or promote from within more Hispanic Americans to help in enforcing this new law. Expect a Hispanic American to be put in charge or be the face of AZ's atttempt to implement this new law.

[Jacob1983]

Why can't America do a better job on immigration? Why is it so hard? And why is a country racist when they get tough on immigration? Sometimes I think that America should be like North Korea on people crossing the borders illegally. That might scare people into thinking twice about crossing the borders illegally here.

[ChumpDumper]

True. Millions of people are trying to get into North Korea to get jobs.

[Jacob1983]

I meant why can't America be strict like North Korea? North Korea will in put you in prison for a long time if you cross the border illegally or even legally in some cases. Just sayin'. Why should people who cross a border illegally not be punished? Isn't it a crime when a person is somewhere they aren't allowed or don't belong? Am I missing something? Why is it so hard for immigrants to just gain legal status? If I was to leave America to work and live in a foreign country, I wouldn't go into that country illegally. I would do it the proper legal way. Why can't immigrants do that when they come to America?

[ChumpDumper]

Just so we're clear, you want the United States of America to be more like North Korea.

How much would it cost to house prisoners for the years you want to incarcerate them?

Do you know the process for legally immigrating?

[Jacob1983]

Chumpdumper, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.

Can you not detect sarcasm?

[ChumpDumper]

Chumpdumper, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.

Can you not detect sarcasm?

You're saying you are being sarcastic?

You don't want the US to be tougher and imprison illegal immigrants for years?

[Yonivore]

[Jacob1983]

Yeah, why not? It might send a message to people that coming into America is a crime and people will be punished for it. Are you going to tell me that a person should be allowed to enter any country including America without the proper do ents and ID? Yes or no?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, why not? It might send a message to people that coming into America is a crime and people will be punished for it. Are you going to tell me that a person should be allowed to enter any country including America without the proper do ents and ID? Yes or no?

So to be clear: you were not being sarcastic.

Right?

[Jacob1983]

Yeah and I posted that about North Korea just to piss you off, dumper. Seriously, if you're so against this new law, why aren't you doing something about it? Why not get off your computer and go protest it?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah and I posted that about North Korea just to piss you off, dumper.

Well, you failed at that. Do you know that sarcasm is?

Seriously, if you're so against this new law, why aren't you doing something about it? Why not get off your computer and go protest it?

What gave you the idea I was so against it?

I think it's a stupidly impractical law and will prove to be exactly that pretty quickly without any protest at all. I'm for going after the employers. If there is a protest for that particular issue in town, let me know about it.