How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?

[wekko368]

Of course it was average to him, I said he would not put up the stats in today's game because of the zone, and the 96 Sonics series was evidence.

That's not persuasive evidence. You have to consider how a team is built. In 1996, do you know who had the 2nd highest rebounding average on the Rockets' roster? Drexler at 7.2 rpg. The starting PF, Chucky Brown, averaged 5.4 rpg. In 1997, the Rockets added Charles Barkley and Kevin Willis and beat the Sonics in the playoffs.

If Olajuwon were playing today, I think his stats would be significantly better. If Yao Ming could average 20ppg/10rpg, there's no telling what Olajuwon would do, especially since he'd be facing weaker compe ion.

[ambchang]

That's not persuasive evidence. You have to consider how a team is built. In 1996, do you know who had the 2nd highest rebounding average on the Rockets' roster? Drexler at 7.2 rpg. The starting PF, Chucky Brown, averaged 5.4 rpg. In 1997, the Rockets added Charles Barkley and Kevin Willis and beat the Sonics in the playoffs.

If Olajuwon were playing today, I think his stats would be significantly better. If Yao Ming could average 20ppg/10rpg, there's no telling what Olajuwon would do, especially since he'd be facing weaker compe ion.

And do you know who the second leading rebounder on that 1995 squad was? That year where Hakeem destroyed the league to championship?

And do you know what Hakeem averaged with Barkley and Willis next to him? Significantly less.

Thanks for proving my point and contradicting your own.

Oh, and if not for injuries, Yao could have been one of the great offensive centers in the league. But then he was so good on offense because it was so big, which led to his injuries (and slowness which affected his defense), so it's a catch 22.


EDIT: Of course it's not persuasive evidence. Hakeem defies the laws of mathematics, he NEVER had a below average series, EVER.

You know why Hakeem actually went to Toronto? Because Niagara falls was actually running low on water, so Hakeem went to Toronto and took a piss, and the falls are now grander than ever.

[wekko368]

And do you know who the second leading rebounder on that 1995 squad was? That year where Hakeem destroyed the league to championship?

Basketball is about matchups. The Rockets needed more size to beat Seattle. Also, in 1995, Olajuwon was at the top of his game, playing arguably the best basketball the league has ever seen. There was a sizable drop off from 1995 Olajuwon and 1997 Olajuwon.

And do you know what Hakeem averaged with Barkley and Willis next to him? Significantly less.

Thanks for proving my point and contradicting your own.

How exactly did that prove your point and disprove mine?

Oh, and if not for injuries, Yao could have been one of the great offensive centers in the league. But then he was so good on offense because it was so big, which led to his injuries (and slowness which affected his defense), so it's a catch 22.

I guess Yao wasn't a good example. Let's look at Dwight Howard. For a while, he was a consistent 20/10 guy, and his offensive repertoire is abysmal. If he could average 20/10, why is it so hard to believe that Olajuwon would put up significantly better stats? In your response, be sure to factor in their respective skill-sets.

[LkrFan]

I mean, I watched Amare take wet s on Duncan. Plenty of times. And y'all farmers think he can check prime Dream?

[Jenks]

Not saying that Avery could spread the floor, but he showed up for the most part in that series. He averaged 16.2 ppg on 54% shooting and 7.5 asts. Elliott averaged 17 and 5 on 46% shooting so Robinson did have some help during that series.

Elliott single handedly choked away game 1 and in retrospect the series.
That's like saying Ewing got help from Starks the previous year.

[TDfan2007]

I mean, I watched Amare take wet s on Duncan. Plenty of times. And y'all farmers think he can check prime Dream?

Most of Amare's points in that series came off the pnr. Also, in that 05 series Timmy was hobbled with 2 bad ankles. His mobility was limited, which makes guarding a guy like Amare a nightmare.

Furthermore, Amare at his peak was far more explosive than Hakeem, but didn't have half of Hakeem's post moves/footwork. Apples to oranges comparison.

[dbreiden83080]

His 94/95 rockets VS any of Duncan's le squads.

Spurs win..

[dbreiden83080]

I mean, I watched Amare take wet s on Duncan. Plenty of times. And y'all farmers think he can check prime Dream?

Nobody could check Hakeem in his prime and he is not checking 2003 Timmy either.. Who's team would win is more relevant? Not many would pick Dreams teams over Timmy's..

[LkrFan]

Most of Amare's points in that series came off the pnr. Also, in that 05 series Timmy was hobbled with 2 bad ankles. His mobility was limited, which makes guarding a guy like Amare a nightmare.

Furthermore, Amare at his peak was far more explosive than Hakeem, but didn't have half of Hakeem's post moves/footwork. Apples to oranges comparison.

Have you ever seen prime Dream? Ask the Admiral about that mu a! Amare ain't got on him. Like I said, he'd DESTROY Duncan. Not even trolling son.

[LkrFan]

Nobody could check Hakeem in his prime and he is not checking 2003 Timmy either.. Who's team would win is more relevant? Not many would pick Dreams teams over Timmy's..

Dream is probably the greatest defensive center of all time. Surely he could check Duncan - without a double team either. He was a monster. Real talk.

[LkrFan]

Hey djohn2oo8 you see all this bull these farmers posting about Dream? Un ing believable. Here's prime Dream's hitlist:

Ewing (HOF)
Shaq (HOF)
Daughtery (career cut short - would make HOF)
Parish (HOF)
Robinsn (HOF)
Mailman (HOF)
Barkley (HOF)

I'm sure I'm missing a few more HOFers he had the pleasure of ting on. Simply put, if Magic had Dream, he's sitting on 9+ rangs. These farmers are severely underrating your boy. SMH

[Cry Havoc]

No sense in going point by point since it appears you're prepared to die on a hill of a terrible argument. I'll just point out why it's terrible.

In your initial posts to me, you focused primarily on Hakeem's scoring in that 1996 Seattle series to determine what was an "average," "below average," etc. Subsequently, you've tried to amend the argument by suggesting "average to him." It still doesn't make sense. A player doesn't have to hit his regular season scoring average to have an "average" performance in a game. But that's what you're suggesting. A player can be short of his regular season scoring average and still have a good or great game.

To help illustrate this, let's use this example:

Player X averages 25 points in the regular season.

In a playoff game, that player goes 10-for-10 from the field, 3-for-3 from the free throw line for 23 points.

A perfect, pristine shooting game. Your logic dictates that this particular playoff scoring performance is "slightly below average" because it falls 2 points short of his regular season average. That is exactly what your argument has been. And it sounds ridiculous. The only way he could have an "average" scoring performance is to hit that regular season average of 25 points.

It's a terrible argument.

It's really not that terrible. Different sport, but I remember when teams were playing the Kurt Warner led Rams and would "hold" them to 38-42 points and consider that a good game. Now, by any other measure, that's a terrible defensive game, yet because the Rams routinely scored into the 50s it was considered a good performance, or at the very least, acceptable.

Shaq in his prime could have averaged 22 and 10 for a series which would be phenomenal by any modern big man standard, but teams would have been elated to hold him to that if it came on average or slightly below shooting. Obviously a 20-10 series by just about any metric is great, but when you can play against one of the best ever (arguably the best ever, as I think Hakeem is drastically underrated) and have him not completely decimate your team for at least one or two games, you walk away happy.

[TDfan2007]

I think that this thread has been massively derailed, so back to the actual topic...


Offense: Even

The two are just about even on this end. Any advantage Hakeem would have on the block (which would be minimal, since we're talking about 2 of the 3 best post players ever) would be neutralized by Timmy's slight advantage in the high post/faceup game. Both guys had it all and are probably 2 of the best one-on-one bigs in league history. In their primes both guys won championships in simplistic systems predicated on the fact that nobody could defend them in the low post/high post.

Defense: Advantage: Hakeem

This is the side of the ball that separates the two in terms of pure one on one IMO. Prime Timmy was one of the greatest team defenders in NBA history, and a fantastic one on one defender. However, Prime Olajuwan was arguably the best big man defender in NBA history...period. He had amazing hands, great timing, and the footspeed/coordination to stay in front of faceup players as well. Hakeem wasn't as good of a team defender as Timmy, but that doesn't factor into one-on-one play.

Conclusion: One on one I'd have to give the slight advantage to the Dream. Timmy would hold his own, but if these guys played 10 games, I'd expect Dream to come out on top in at least 6 of those games. Tbh it's too bad we never got to see a matchup like this. I miss watching HOF level bigs go at each other. I was too young to see David vs. Hakeem live in the 90s, but I'll never forget how fun it was to watch Duncan and KG go at it.

[djohn2oo8]

Hey djohn2oo8 you see all this bull these farmers posting about Dream? Un ing believable. Here's prime Dream's hitlist:

Ewing (HOF)
Shaq (HOF)
Daughtery (career cut short - would make HOF)
Parish (HOF)
Robinsn (HOF)
Mailman (HOF)
Barkley (HOF)

I'm sure I'm missing a few more HOFers he had the pleasure of ting on. Simply put, if Magic had Dream, he's sitting on 9+ rangs. These farmers are severely underrating your boy. SMH

I've posted before about it before, stats and etc. Jamstone summed it up perfectly. You have non homer spurfans like Bene, Baseline and others who know how good Dream was. It's the others who say he only had two prime years are the ones who don't bother to look at his stats.

[LkrFan]

I've posted before about it before, stats and etc. Jamstone summed it up perfectly. You have non homer spurfans like Bene, Baseline and others who know how good Dream was. It's the others who say he only had two prime years are the ones who don't bother to look at his stats.

[TDfan2007]

Have you ever seen prime Dream? Ask the Admiral about that mu a! Amare ain't got on him. Like I said, he'd DESTROY Duncan. Not even trolling son.

Robinson admitted to not being able to defend a ROOKIE Tim Duncan. Prime Timmy was even better. GTFO. Timmy is the only PF that Barkley will admit is better than him. KG, one of the greatest defensive players in history, has repeatedly said that Timmy was his toughest cover. Your boy Magic, who played against Hakeem, said that he'd never seen a big man with Timmy's footwork (this was during the 03 series against LA). NOBODY would destroy prime Duncan. I do agree that Dream would fare better in a straight one on one, but it's closer than you might think.

[TDfan2007]

I've posted before about it before, stats and etc. Jamstone summed it up perfectly. You have non homer spurfans like Bene, Baseline and others who know how good Dream was. It's the others who say he only had two prime years are the ones who don't bother to look at his stats.

Hakeem came into the league as an almost complete product. His numbers and impact were amazing right out of the box, much like Duncan's. Again, I never saw Hakeem play in person, but based on taped games and the numbers, I'd say his true prime was from 92-96.

[dbreiden83080]

Dream is probably the greatest defensive center of all time. Surely he could check Duncan - without a double team either. He was a monster. Real talk.

7 game series.. No Duncan gets his..

[Brunodf]

Dream is probably the greatest defensive center of all time. Surely he could check Duncan - without a double team either. He was a monster. Real talk.

Right. And somehow he had only 2 great seasons during his entire career.

But 5/10 tbh, solid effort but you could've tried harder to make this believable

[Malik Hairston]

missing the playoffs in your prime
pedophile
Raptors

[pgardn]

Dream is probably the greatest defensive center of all time. Surely he could check Duncan - without a double team either. He was a monster. Real talk.

No Fkn way. Absolutely no way Hakeem covers prime Duncan 1 on 1.
Duncan gets body into him preventing the quick jump.
Duncan is soooo much longer, once he has him planted it's an easy basket.
Duncan pumps, body, and myriad of inside shots keep Hakeem grounded. Absolutely no doubt in my mind.

And lastly, the Rockets would never have been stupid enough to try it, they tried to win. The above would assure them a loss. Everyone doubled prime Duncan, and if they did not, they got spanked.

And that is the end of the discussion. I thank you.

[ezau]

Prime Duncan went toe-to-toe against prime Shaq plenty of times and won many of those. I have no doubt in mind that Duncan can be as successful against prime Hakeem.

[wekko368]

Prime Duncan went toe-to-toe against prime Shaq plenty of times and won many of those. I have no doubt in mind that Duncan can be as successful against prime Hakeem.

Did you even watch the video you posted? I watched the first 5 minutes. It featured Duncan 13 times. And in those 13 times, he was guarded by Robert Horry (10), Devean George (1), and Medvedenko (2). Not once was he guarded by Shaq. And conversely, he didn't guard Shaq. David Robinson did.

[RsxPiimp]

'Dream was the better scorer and shot-blocker. Duncan is still the better passer and rebounder. Both have successfully anchored teams with comparatively weak talent (for a championship team) that were based around chemistry and timely contributions all around working in tandem with a dominant interior player.

It's Dream, in my mind, but by no means is this an easy decision or large gap. Both have their merits; Duncan's generally been able to play a low-key game and then step it up as necessary, so while his stats haven't been quite as gaudy, his effectiveness is there nonetheless.



I was lucky enough to actually watch Olajuwon during his prime. In the playoffs, Olajuwon was one of the few players in history that can literally shut you down and score on you OTOE




One of my favorite stories of Olajuwon this was from Mario Ellie:


I played with but 'Dream,' just his performance in pressure situations—when David Robinson got the '95 MVP, 'Dream' told me, 'Mario, he’s borrowing my trophy.' When I heard that I said, 'Somebody’s in trouble tonight.' That guy put on a performance—under that pressure against the MVP and we have no home court advantage—and 'Dream' just dominated that position. It reminded me of when Jordan dominated Clyde when they were comparing the two guards. They were comparing two centers and 'Dream' just totally—I don’t want to say embarrassed—but he really embarrassed him, he dominated him—(series averages of) 35 (points), 13 (rebounds), 5 assists, 4 blocks. Those are amazing numbers for a center."

[ezau]

Did you even watch the video you posted? I watched the first 5 minutes. It featured Duncan 13 times. And in those 13 times, he was guarded by Robert Horry (10), Devean George (1), and Medvedenko (2). Not once was he guarded by Shaq. And conversely, he didn't guard Shaq. David Robinson did.

Duncan: 5
OlajuRaptor: 2

An African center, with basically a four-year prime who won two les when Jordan left the league, should never be compared to Duncan. The only other big who is better career and talent-wise is Kareem. Which reminds me, the Rockets' last championship was 20 freaking years ago. Stay hungry, sons.