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Damn, ezau resorting to the emoti battle. You know its over.
Proving my point. Spurs will ring again after Duncan hangs them up because of a great organization. Rockets' organization has been ty since Steve Patterson left. Spurs have stability.
Damn, ezau resorting to the emoti battle. You know its over.
Son, 9/10 coaches will pick Duncan over Hakeem any day, including holidays and Sundays. 5>2
Do you know how much the world has changed since 95? It's been that long since Houston last tasted a championship.
Not sure how to look at Olajuwon now considering he couldn't even beat Shawn mother ing Kemp. That big African should thank MJ for taking a break, otherwise, Houston would've been 0-timers like Phoenix.
Shaq guarded him for most of the 2nd half. If you watched the whole video, you would've seen that. Duncan was too big/strong for Horry, and too quick for Shaq. And who do you think guarded Shaq when David was out/hurt? There's a video on youtube of the 2002 series against LA, where Bill Walton mentions that Duncan was playing the best defense he'd seen against Shaq in recent memory.
Duncan was the Spurs best player in the playoffs both in 2007 and in 2014. In 2007 the Spurs exploited a monumental mismatch at the PG position. Tim played the facilitator/defender role and led the team in blocks, rebounds, and assists. In 2014 Kawhi went ape for 3 games, but Timmy was arguably our most consistent player for the series and also played incredible defense.
Actually, you can. Duncan went through KG in 1999 and 2001, Gasol in 2004, Dirk in 2001, 2003, 2010 and 2014, Rasheed Wallace in the 2005 finals, and Shaq in 1999, 2003, and 2008 (outplaying him in each series, btw). The only great PF/C of his era that he didn't face and defeat in the playoffs was Chris Webber, but Timmy routinely outplayed Webber in their RS meetings.
You're vastly overrating Manu and Tony in their 2003 iterations. Manu was just a rookie then and his play was inconsistent at best. Tony was routinely benched for Speedy ing Claxton and the Spurs almost signed Kidd to replace him that offseason. You're also forgetting that along with those two guys, Hakeem had a 20+ ppg scorer in Drexler by his side in 1995. His 1994 team is comparable to the 2003 Spurs talent-wise though.TP and Manu> Kenny Smith and Mario Ellie FOH
As I stated before, Duncan guarded Shaq when the occasion called for it and did an amazing job during those times.
And I'm not sure what you consider a "good job." Hakeem was constantly in foul trouble trying to guard David in that 1995 series, and it's not like he didn't have ample help. The Rockets doubled David like crazy for just about the entire series. As for his Finals series against Shaq, Shaq averaged 28ppg on almost 60% shooting for that series...
The only one of his contemporaries that he "locked down" was Ewing. The rest of those matchups swung in Dream's favor because of his amazing offensive numbers, not by anything he did defensively.
Is that why the Rockets had to triple Robinson the entire series?
Hakeem dominated Robinson 1 on 1
Wow! So NOW it's about matchups and how Rockets lack size.
But when it comes to Hakeem winning the battle, it was
Why isn't it that Shawn Kemp beat Hakeem? Oh wait, the Rockets need more size!
The Spurs had all the size they needed when they beat Hakeem, never mind Rodman was jacking up three pointers, leading Horry wide opened for rebounds, Avery Johnson and Del Negro was so bad shooting from outside that the Rockets triple teamed Robinson and every catch the entire series.
You know what that sizable drop off from 1995 to 1997 was? Barkley taking up his shots. Hakeem is a great individual player, one of the best ever, but he would still have to give up shots to other teammates when the situation warrants.
Me: Hakeem would average lower points in today's NBA (ie, the one with less one on one play and more team play). Proof is Sonics in 96
Jamstone: Sonics lost to them in 97
Me: 97 Rockets had Barkley, so it's tougher to zone on Hakeem. BTW, it took 7 games and Hakeem shot a lot less.
You: Sonics lost to them in 97 with Barkley and Willis
Me: He averaged a lot less points and shots, which supports my original statement that he would have lower averages in today's NBA.
Because Howard was bigger and better than anyone. He was an athletic marvel who was surrounded by 3 point shooters (blueprint started by, not coincidentally, the Hakeem Rockets). Dwight, at his absolute peak, was a 23/14 player. Hakeem was 28/12 or 24/14. That's a 5 point difference. They aren't even comparable statistics wise. It's like saying Zydrunas Ilgauskas had comparable stats to Dwight because he averaged 17/9 a game in his peak, which is really only 6 points off Dwight's.
And oh, Dwight only did that for one year, he was mostly an 18 to 20 point scorer in his entire career.
BTW 2, Pau Gasol was one of the most skilled player in the low post, yet he never averaged over 21 ppg, and mostly in the 18 ppg range. He plays in the same era as Dwight, but MVPau, despite his skills, averaged less.
Duncan won with an aging Robinson, rookie Manu and a Parker who was replaced by Speedy Claxton, and took them to a championship, putting up a near quad-doub in the finals.You give Olajuwon the stability of a franchise Duncan had and let's see how it works. Additionally, since you want to play that game. How about we put Duncan with an aging Clyde Drexler, Robert Horry and Kenny Smith as his supporting cast.
He also took an aging Robinson, Jaren Jackson and Will Perdue to another championship.
BTW, the 94 championship run > 95 championship run.
95 championship run they won without HCA in any round. And no other team seeded that low or lower has won.
PedoDream had trouble beating DRob basically 1 on 5; so yeah, I don't know what djohn is smoking but it's probably some good .
D-Rob couldn't hold Dream's jock. Not when it mattered.
That was surely impressive, and a lot has to do with integrating Drexler in the system during the regular season, and the Maxwell incident.
What I meant was from an individual level for Hakeem. The quality of teammates that Hakeem took to the championship wasn't as good as his 95 teammates.
Right, D-Rob had trouble with triple teams, while Hakeem was beasting on a Robinson that had to guard him one on one, not to mention recover for Rodman's missed defensive assignments.
Hakeem sure showed Robinson individually when it mattered.
But when Hakeem was held to a bad showing vs. the Sonics, it was because of the poor mean refs and their refusal to call illegal D
It's hard to find anyone outside of Spurs fans that takes Duncan over Hakeem. Robert Horry says Olajuwon was the best center he played with hands down.
I watched the rest of the video. Shaq guarded Duncan on maybe 5 possessions, and on other possessions, Duncan was guarded by either Horry or Medvedenko.
Shaq vs. Duncan was mostly a marketing ploy.
Most of the time, Horry guarded Duncan with help, and Robinson/Rose guarded Shaq with Duncan as help.
This saves Duncan and Shaq on offense, helps them avoid foul trouble, and allows both to be the last line of defense to help out on drives, and in Duncan's case, close out on pick and rolls.
Shaq was often times asked to guard Duncan in the final quarter, and it came with mixed success. Shaq was effective in the sense that he can easily dislodge Duncan due to his strength, but his defensive techniques are not as strong as Horry, and could be picked and rolled to death (Shaq was one of the worst superstar centres to defend the pick and roll because he doesn't close out on shooters). That said, the Spurs didn't really have any shooters to run the pick and roll (Antonio Daniels, Avery Johnson, an ancient Terry Porter, rookie Parker), so everybody knew the Spurs will use Duncan on the roll, and the PG is just there to pass Duncan the ball, making Duncan MUCH easier to guard.
This changed with the addition of Speedy Claxton (mid rangers and long range twos. 39% of his shots are 2's > 16 feet, and he nails 57% in the regular season. Those numbers became 41% and 49% in the playoffs), and Kerr (long range twos and threes).
Again, this speaks to how ridiculously important it is for a big to have a PG who can shoot from the outside, especially when you play against the Shaq Lakers. Not having a good shooting PG allows the entire defense to collapse on big, and significantly undermines the effectiveness of a pick and roll, which was one of the most important tools in 90s and 00s ball.
Robinson, the most humble man on earth, said straight up he would beat Timmy in a one on one - and he's absolutely right. Don't fall into the re /troll trap of pretending 95 was even close to a 1 on 1 series.
Basketball is all about matchups. The Sonics beat the Rockets in 1996. In 1997, the Rockets added Barkley and Kevin Willis and beat the Sonics.Wow! So NOW it's about matchups and how Rockets lack size.
But when it comes to Hakeem winning the battle, it was
Why isn't it that Shawn Kemp beat Hakeem? Oh wait, the Rockets need more size!
What exactly is your point? Also, if you recall, in 1995, the Rockets traded for Clyde Drexler in the middle of the season. It took some time for them to gel.
You're totally ignoring the caliber of teammates. Do you realize how poorly the Rockets' shooters shot? In game 1, Kenny Smith went 0-3, Cassell went 3-12, and Elie went 3-7. In game 2, Smith went 3-11, Cassell went 1-5, and Elie went 2-6. In game 3, Smith shot 8-15, Cassell went 0-4, and Elie went 4-10. In game 4, Smith shot 0-4, Cassell shot 5-16, and Elie shot 5-14.
So no, the Sonics' 1996 victory over the Rockets doesn't support your assertion. In fact, when you look at Olajuwon's stats for games 2, 3, and 4, it hurts your argument.
First of all, Dwight averaged at least 20pts/10rbs in 2008, 2009, 2011, and 2012.
Secondly, you have to look at these comparisons in the proper context. Dwight's peak was 23/14, but he played against historically weak opposition. Olajuwon's peak was 28/12, but he played in the golden era of centers against some of the greatest centers of all-time. If Olajuwon played in Dwight's era, his stats would undoubtedly improve.
Thirdly, Olajuwon was easily a better athlete than Dwight. Look at the way they move. Dwight can run fast and jump high, but his movements are robotic. Olajuwon's were graceful, and he had an infinitely better touch.
Gasol had a weak supporting cast in Memphis, and he was the #2 option in LA.
Not arguing that. In fact, it's pretty obvious.
Sarcasm in pointing out the double standards to judge Robinson in one series vs. the Rockets vs. Hakeem in the ones series vs. the Sonics.
My stance is that the caliber of teammates had a HUGE effect on players, which has been my rant about Robinson having Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro as his STARTING guards.
Sonics had the speed and length to close out on three point shooters, especially with the shorter three point line, which allowed them to double/triple Hakeem while recovering enough to bother the shooters. This had three effects on Hakeem:
1) He get less shots
2) He shoots worse
3) He turns the ball over more
I am not entirely sure how Game 2 would ever hurt my argument. He shot 8 for 21 for 17 points and 5 TOV in the game. How is that supposed to be rated? A good game? A decent game?
Game 3, he got 12 shots and 7 TOV. He shot well (7-12), and passed great 9 assists, but on an individual basis, it was an average game for him.
Game 4, he got 26 points, but played 50 minutes (since you love to normalize the numbers), and had 4 TOs.
None of those 4 games could be considered good for him. And it was due to the semi-zone defense the Sonics played. Zones are full-fledge legal in today's league, so him playing in today's league would lead to lower numbers.
I don't know what the point of your first point was. I put in 23/14 and ignored the 20/10 seasons, which actually was to your benefit, but each it's own.
Second, the position is historically weak because of the way the game has changed. Rules are now favouring the use of perimeter players vs. big men, so even capable bigs are being utilized less, which hurts an individual's stats.
Third, Olajuwon was more graceful and much more coordinated, but he is not a better athlete. Besides, being graceful didn't make Rony Seikaly an all-time best big, so the point is moot.
How would a weak supporting cast hurt Gasol's individual stats? If anything, it should bolster it, and still only averaged 20 a game.
There are several videos out there, one on the 2003 championship DVD and I believe in the video below, where David admits that Timmy gave him the business during training camp. It's one of the reasons why David gave up the reigns of the offense so readily. Not saying that Timmy could guard David. Neither player would be able to defend the other imo.
LOL. Claiming my point is moot without even refuting it. Nice.
Even other Spurs fans agree that Duncan didn't guard Shaq.
Duncan didn't guard Shaq for most of the game to avoid foul trouble. It's the same reason why Shaq didn't guard him for most of the game, and the same reason why the Rockets ROUTINELY doubled David in that playoff series. You don't have your top dog guard the other team's top dog for the whole game if possible (i.e. if someone else can do a comparable job and keep your guy fresher on the offensive end). It's just basic basketball strategy.
You claimed that Duncan never guarded Shaq, which he did, and when he did he did as good a job as possible.
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