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  1. #26
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Do you have a problem with foreign people being here, or with foreign people being here illegally?
    Is that a serious question? Are you new to this section of the forum? My feelings about immigration have been clear.

    I support legal immigration.

    I have no problem with foreigners. My ex-wife is a legal immigrant.

    Immigration is not something that we can allow people to clog up the welfare system with.

    Socialism is not what this nation is meant to be. It is fine in limited cases, but what happens when the burden of socialism exceeded the ability of tax payers to support it? We have reached that point, and possibly now at the point of no return... where this nation is doomed.

    We have a legal route to control immigration. We can absorb limited numbers without stress. we should also choose those who improve the national wealth rather than take from it.

    So many other reasons for controlling immigration.

    Bottom line anyway is... Illegal is illegal.

  2. #27
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The problem I see with the argument as presented in the OP is that in the particular case of skilled legal immigration there's really not much of a problem outside of the limits imposed by Congress. But I don't see that as the main factor driving illegal immigration. Most truly skilled foreign workers can still get a job in their native countries or even try the same luck on other first world nations around the globe. I mean, I speak from personal experience. I received a skilled worker visa from the US back in 1999, but if they would have decided not to grant it to me, I already had a job offer in the Netherlands to fall back to.

    I think what we're seeing here is a huge influx of unskilled workers. They're used to living in poor conditions and so they manage to work for a lot cheaper and some are not looking to stay for life either. They want to collect US dollars for X amount of months/years and then go back home with the mini fortune they collected.

    Some do stay, but because they lack the skills required to obtain citizenship, they can't get anywhere either.

    So the question becomes how do you compete with these people that are willing to do more for much less without lowering your standard of living? How does the person that's working hard to save money to retire in this country with the cost of living we have here competes with the person that's saving to go away to some poor country to live in what we would consider sub-standard living?
    I think you have a good take on the situation. I wish others understood the supply and demand of low cost labor.

    So many people talk about illegal immigrants doing the jobs Americans don't want. Well, in a supply and demand economy, this means that we are suppressing the wages by bringing in competing low skill labor. All we end up doing is lowering everyone's standard of living by increasing the need and usage of social programs.

  3. #28
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Also, did you see the Texas comptroller's report on the economic impact of illegal immigrants on Texas?
    Sorry, no. Is it partisan? Is it biased for the cause?
    Their contribution is not replaceable by other means, and their total absence would mean a 2%-2.5% loss to Texas GDP every year.
    Bull .

    Maybe assuming like many do that things are static. It will simply force employers to pay enough to attract workers. An improvement on the economy by removing people from the welfare system to the workforce.
    Illegal immigrants help Texas's compe iveness. Why not give them more incentives to work legally? What's the drawback there?
    WTF? You really that ignorant to the greater harm it does? Compe ive against what? Other businesses doing the same? Get everyone to stop and it levels that field. Compe ive against foreign commerce? Level our tax system with other nations. use tariffs if necessary.

    The limits and authority in the cons ution was well thought out. I wish people like you would understand that, and stop trying to subvert it.

  4. #29
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    [removing illegal immigrants from the workforce] will simply force employers to pay enough to attract workers. An improvement on the economy by removing people from the welfare system to the workforce.
    Your underlying assumption is:

    Illegal immigrants harm the economy because they are on "the welfare system", and this hurts the economy more than their presence adding to the flow of goods and services.

    Can you show any data to support this assertion?

    The best economic studies I have seen say that illegal immigrants use much less of the "welfare system" than natives of the same income, simply because they fear being deported.

    This means that they, through their contribution to the economy tend to put more into the system than they take out.

    I could, if asked probably find this study.

    Can you find anything that supports your position?

  5. #30
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sorry, no. Is it partisan? Is it biased for the cause?
    Carole Keeton Rylander ran for and was elected as Texas comptroller, as a Republican. Is that disqualifying?

    The limits and authority in the cons ution was well thought out. I wish people like you would understand that, and stop trying to subvert it.
    Subvert what how, please?

  6. #31
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    First of all, the labor market itself is a restriction on the volume of immigrants. If opportunity is lacking here, people will stop coming. The current recession is proof of that.

    If we get more legal immigrants, we get more employees and employers playing by the rules, hence more people paying into the system, on top of the surplus value created by the work they do.

    Also, did you see the Texas comptroller's report on the economic impact of illegal immigrants on Texas? Their contribution is not replaceable by other means, and their total absence would mean a 2%-2.5% loss to Texas GDP every year. Illegal immigrants help Texas's compe iveness. Why not give them more incentives to work legally? What's the drawback there?
    that makes sense only to opponents of illegal immigration who also happen to be in favor of immigration reform; not to the plethora of otherwise too- much-spare-time-on-their-hands brethren who flood these threads with falsehoods about illegal immigrant criminality as well as their individual fantasies about murdering illegals.

  7. #32
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I can't wait for the upcoming "your study is biased, mine isn't" showdown about to happen in this thread...

  8. #33
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I can't wait for the upcoming "your study is biased, mine isn't" showdown about to happen in this thread...
    Until other posters deign to give supporting information it isn't even a showdown.

  9. #34
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    LOL @ WC assuming partisan bias. Texas hasn't had a single statewide official from the Democratic party in about 15 years, and Carole Keeton Rylander (Strayhorn?) is nobody's lib.

  10. #35
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Well, here is a relevant study that holds little bias that I could find:

    Mexico's population: When the niños run out, a falling birth rate, and what it means
    http://www.economist.com/world/ameri...ry_id=15959332

    In the 1960s Mexican mothers had nearly seven children each (whereas women in India then had fewer than six). The average now is just over two—almost the same as in the United States. The UN reckons that from 2040 the birth rate in Mexico will be the lower of the two.
    ...
    History teaches caution in assessing the link between demography and migration. The Mexican baby boom of the 1950s coincided with lowish emigration, whereas the exodus to the United States kicked off in the 1980s, just as Mexico’s birth rate was plummeting. Today’s falling fertility rate will curb the flow. But the main motors of migration will still be economic boom or bust—on both sides of the border.
    FWIW.

  11. #36
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One might find bias in studies, but when considering any policy from a healthy and intellectually honest perspective, we have to consider both costs and benefits from any given policy, such as legalizing and fasttracking illegal immigrants into some sort of guest program.

    Here is a fair article that outlines some of the issues:
    Researchers disagree on illegal immigrant cost-benefit analysis

    Overall, I see a lot of "conservatives" always put out nothing but the costs and gloss over or ignore any potential benefits.
    Here is a pretty representative conservative blogger post. It shows nothing but what is spent and so forth, but doesn't put any balancing dollar value on any contributions.

    An amnesty program would, undoubtfully, increase the number of people filing tax returns, and therefore paying into SS and Medicare. The amount of money flowing into the government would, by some accounts, outweigh any extra costs of increased welfare costs.

    I think legalization here, much like legalization of marijuana, would force a lot of the "shadow" economy into the open, and reduce a lot of unnecessary costs while increasing overall benefits.

    I know that is just a silly emotional "liberal" argument though.

  12. #37
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Bump.

  13. #38
    Veteran
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    "number of people filing tax returns, and therefore paying into SS and Medicare"

    many illegals already pay income taxes (they don't need a Soc Sec #) and SS, with no chance of ever seeing it again as unemployment pay nor retirement.

    Illegal immigration whining is a Repug/conservative racist rabble-rouser for getting votes.

    Note that Repugs did nothing about illegal immigration for their 8 years in power, because their corporate/business campaign contributors who benefit from cheap labor didn't want them to.

  14. #39
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    "number of people filing tax returns, and therefore paying into SS and Medicare"

    many illegals already pay income taxes (they don't need a Soc Sec #) and SS, with no chance of ever seeing it again as unemployment pay nor retirement.

    Illegal immigration whining is a Repug/conservative racist rabble-rouser for getting votes.

    Note that Repugs did nothing about illegal immigration for their 8 years in power, because their corporate/business campaign contributors who benefit from cheap labor didn't want them to.
    More true than many here would admit on all counts.

  15. #40
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    More true than many here would admit on all counts.
    Conversely, less true than many here would admit as well.

  16. #41
    Believe.
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    Conversely, less true than many here would admit as well.
    Sure, but we still need to discriminate between those who do pay their contributions and those who don't in terms of benefits and security.
    _______________________________________
    Marius from W2C

  17. #42
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Sure, but we still need to discriminate between those who do pay their contributions and those who don't in terms of benefits and security.
    _______________________________________
    Marius from W2C
    Also consider the wider impacts each person has. They may never pay into taxes directly, but still pay rent, which pays property taxes, and buy things, which pay sales taxes.

    Many jobs that a lot of people who are immigrants have at the outset tend not to pay well, so any income tax would be almost neglible if they were fully legal and compliant.

    Quite frankly most opposition to "immigrants" stems from pure racism, conscious or unconscious. That is the one thing that rings crystal clear in these discussions.

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