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  1. #126
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    There in lies the problem. No one ever talks about the saved lives from the UT Tower shooting, because of all the citizens who had their rifles and fired back which kept whitman pinned down.
    How many lives did those private citizens save?

  2. #127
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    Then you would be incorrect with your assumption about "fear" being the driving force behind my owning a gun.

    I own a gun because I choose to and have a cons utionally protected right to do so.

    There isnt one member of my family over the age of 14 that doesnt know how to handle a firearm, especially something as simple as a handgun.

    I keep a gun in my nightstand because crazy happens all the time. For instance, and I am sure a couple Michigan folks can confirm this story, but within the past 2-3 years (my memory sucks) there was a home invasion in Chesterfield township (FAR north of Detroit) where a young married couple (whom my wife graduated with both of them) were bound, beaten and robbed.

    Since the dip felons didnt wear masks or the like, they knew the two suspects could identify them, so they had to kill them. So they beat them with clubs while they were tied to chairs, but it didnt finish the husband. So they injected him with bleach...numerous times. It still didnt kill him. So they continued to beat him...still didnt die. Smothering, choking, etc...wouldnt die. He finally died probably from the ulative effect of all the abuse and poisoning.

    This happened 10 miles from my house and I knew (vicariously) the victims.

    The murderers were apprehended a few short days later. Turns out, they were a young couple who were riding around with a dead hillbilly in the trunk/bed of their car. That poor soul made the mistake of offering help to the young couple up north (where police services arent around the corner). He let them stay in his trailer on his property for free for a couple days, then they tortured and killed him, but didnt know what to do with the body. They burned it, etc.

    So while fleeing the scene up north, they needed fast money. They picked a random house, found a young woman there, invaded and accosted her, made her call her husband home for "an emergency". She (unforgivably) complied with their demands and called him home. He rushed home and was assaulted as soon as he entered the front door. They beat and tortured them all night and ended up killing both of them via the methods described above.

    That isnt happening to me or my family, ever. I keep a 9mm in my nightstand for when I am sleeping (wife is a notoriously light sleeper and knows to wake me up should she become alarmed), I keep a .380 near my person everywhere in the house, especially in my basement (worst place to be in your house is the basement...no exits). I have patrolled twice in my five years living there, one was a false alarm, the other, IMO, was not. A su ious car kept circling the neighborhood slowing down in front of our house every time (we were watching them through the window in the den). This literally went on for about a half hour, over 15x they passed by, slowed down.

    My wife was trippin', very nervous. She called the police, they said theyd send someone right over. 40 minutes later, no cops. Car is still there and at this point, I know there are 3 people in the car. Too dark to get a license plate and only a dumbass, pacifist with no brain goes out to the driveway with a baseball bat like thats a show of force.

    So I holstered my 9mm on my belt, tucked my shirt in and stood at the end of my driveway near a very thick, mature tree and waited for them to come back around. They did. They slowed down near me and scoped me out, all I did, no macho , is turn my body to show the piece. They, literally, sped off and never returned.

    I stood awake in my den for a good two hours with a loaded 12 gauge seeing if they'd come back. The first car to come around...the police. I explained the exact situation, description of the car, number of people in it, how our house had been robbed recently and every detail. His exact words "You did the right thing."

    My father had a person try and break into his house (in Detroit) from below the floor. When the perp got through the floor somehow, he peeked his head through to see a side-by-side 12 gauge pointed at his nose.

    My uncle was on a 25ft extension ladder tying a new service in for a commercial building just outside Detroit. A precarious position, to be sure, especially working with 10,000 volts. A group of hoodlums strolled up and started to shake the ladder, demanding his wallet. He said "Sure". Reached in his back pocket for his .38, pointed it at them, ed the hammer and they scattered.

    My aunt was broke down on the side of the road on I-75, I dont know if I was ever told what was wrong with the car, a pedestrian pulled over and offered assistance. She accepted, but kept her purse on her. The guy got under the hood and asked her to take the driver's seat to try the engine. He leaned under the hood and she got into the seat. Not 30 secs go by and the guy came around the driver's door and tried the door, never said a word. He started hitting the driver's window to break it, to get in. She reached in her purse, pulled her 9mm, and pointed. He ran back to his car and sped away. She collected herself and looked under the hood. He pulled all the spark plug wires.

    The "other outcome" in those situations is not going to happen in my presence or in my life. I have been training with firearms almost longer than I can remember. Only untrained, deliquent morons or untrained children shoot themselves or other people with firearms. My father bought me my first gun (20 gauge, pump action Mossberg) when I was 11. In the first day, I could disasemble it, clean it, and put it back together with no help. Thats the rule in my family before you can keep your first gun.

    If you have had the good fortune to never be in a situation where being armed is desirable, good for you, hope that works out for you and your family the rest of your life.

    But I have been in two situations where being armed was incredibly desirable...the story I told above and another situation where I was unarmed staring at person pointing a gun at me (I was a teenager, at a party and someone came to the house with a weapon out of anger, I just so happened to be the poor bas nearest the backyard gate he entered in). No thanks.

    You can be content trusting your local police force to protect you, you seem to have had no reason to be otherwise. I, otoh, will take active measures to protect myself above and beyond my ability to get to a phone (which, imo, is no "protection" at all). Someone breaks into my house while my wife or I are home, they may have walked in, but theyll be carried out, alive (should they comply) or dead (should they refuse to comply).



    Same place my father kept it when I was too young to know anything about firearms, in a safe. After that, he always had a lock on his door, I'll do the same.

    But my child will be raised with firearms just the same as I was. I never pulled out my "daddy's gun" to show off to my friends. I didnt have to. I shot every single kind of gun before the age of 12, the novelty and "WOW factor" of guns had worn off long before that. They were and are not toys to me. I stopped playing with fake guns before the age of 10 (why play with the fake when youre shooting the real whenever you ask?).

    To answer your question, I havent decided. I am thinking of mounting my 9 in a holster behind my headboard to get it out of the drawer (too obvious) and also have a lock on my bedroom door. I keep the safe in the basement, so thats no issue.

    Mind you, I have children in my house all the time, so I am constantly locking up my firearms. But they dont stay the night (never will) and they get unlocked every time they leave.



    Assault rifles, sniper rifles, handguns, kevlar vests and every single type of ammunition made. As much as they want, so long as they legally purchase and qualify under Federal guidelines (no convicts, mentally disabled, have to be of age, etc).

    /story
    great post. In my experience the kids who played around with guns as kids or bought them illegally as teenagers were the ones who's parents didn't have them or show them how they work.

  3. #128
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    How many lives did those private citizens save?
    This is a snippet from the Wikipedia link, so take it for what it's worth.

    Charles Whitman

    "Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit."

    He seemed to be a decent shot since he killed 14 and wounded 32 so it may have been significant. This doesn't answer your question since it really can't be answered with certainty.

  4. #129
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    I don't get it. That Kosinski dissent suggests that the right to bear arms goes hand in hand with fear of government. I guess that makes sense given the amendment references the militia, as opposed to the armed forces, which would be an extension of the national government. So what I'm hearing is that the right to be armed is a corollary to distrust of government such that, if push comes to shove, citizens have the means to figt "tyranny."

    If that's true, I got two questions: (1) why isn't the idea of armed rebellion against government completely antiquated. Why didn't the 14th and 15th amendments, along with the drastic changes to the cons ution that began in the new deal era court eschew the idea of an agrarian based republic where a populace distrusted their government and needed guns in the event push came to shove. (2) are seperatist movements, like the rpublic of Texas, validly exercising their right to bear arms as well as the corollary right to rise up against government?

  5. #130
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    Did anyone bother to point out blake's

    "I never hear about..."

    as his sole source of logic? Because he hadn't encountered something, it was his foundation for his argument. Ugh. *bangs head on table*
    fwiw, I said "rarely ever hear about..."

    ugh.


    Here's a true story :

    When I was around 4 years old, and my family lived in New York, my father, his sister, and my mother went out somewhere one day.

    When getting out of the car, a man came to assault/mug them. Before he reached out his arm to grab my dad's sister's purse, my father pulled out his S&W revolver on the guy. The criminal got scared less, and ran away and left my family alone.
    Was your life also saved that day or just your aunt's purse?

    Lucky you, lucky us.

  6. #131
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Any suggestions? I don't have a safe or gun cabinet yet and live in a duplex.
    Honestly, Bender schooled me up a while back on a gun subject, he is a far better person to ask.

    I want to make it known that I am by no means an expert on guns (or anything for that matter, besides stabilizer bars, go fig). But I know guns well, how to see quality, maintain working order and use down range. I am, admittedly, rusty with my marksmanship (been awhile, until recently), but that comes with constant practice.

    I couldnt hit a silhouette's center from 50ft with my 9mm the first time I took it to range, but 3 clips later (~45 shots) I was putting a 4" group together. Thats not great, or even good, but its more than accurate enough in any situation.

    To answer your question, RG, about which firearm to purchase, I would only ever suggest what I was taught and learned from.

    A pump action 20 gauge Mossberg (or Remington, Winchester...go with a good, strong name, theyre all relatively cheap...less than $150).

    Reasons:

    Ease of use - A 20 gauge doesnt "kick" nearly as hard. Good for young men to learn with. Obviously, shoot it yourself and judge from that. If 20 gauge seems too much gun for your youngin, go with a 410 gauge. Problem with 410 is its a useless piece for anything but learning (you arent killing deer with a 410 unless youre riding them while aiming). But that alone makes it useful, in its own way.

    Simple design - Pump action shotguns are about the simplest firearm there is in the world. It will teach them (and you) about the mechanics of a basic firearm. Incredibly easy to break-down, clean, lubricate and put back to together. Even an untrained eye (such as myself) can identify the important aspects of a firearm. Firing pin, magazine, slide, barrel, action, etc. Breaking it down and putting it back together is simple and elegant in its design. They never jam (like an auto-loader does when its dirty or old) and about as reliable a weapon as there is in the world. Say that out loud though and someone is going to show you a YouTube of an AK47 being pulled from the desert sand and then fired. Nevermind them.

    Lethality - A 20 gauge shotgun can kill anything short of a bear (with the right ammunition, slug rounds being the operative here). This includes humans, obviously. If youre a good-ish shot, it will fall, period. I killed my first and only deer with my 20 gauge (for which I am still laughed at for to this day...no one hunts deer with a shotgun, I see the humor now).

    Home defense - Any cop or knowledgeable firearm dealer will tell you the best home defense weapon a family can have is a shotgun with buck shot (preferabbly 8oo (the "oo" is pronounced "aught")). The reason is because buckshot doesnt penetrate much after a cetain distance is traveled. When you fire, the shot only hits what youre aiming at. In a house, this means your kids and your neighbors will not be in danger of stray pellets killing them (or even hurting them). Unless theyre, literally, on the other side of a drywall wall that youre aiming at, theyre safe and nowhere near harms way (even buckshot making it through a drywall wall and still being lethal, is questionable). If there is brick between you and those you want safe, there is ZERO chance your shot makes it through the brick (or even cinderblock). This isnt true with high caliber rifles (30-06, .308, .302, 30-30, etc). Their penetration is extreme...it isnt uncommon to shoot a deer and have the bullet pass right through almost completely unnoticed by the deer (until they bleed to death if you hit any vitals, hit the heart and they drop exactly where they stand). Shotgun + buckshot = perfect home defense weapon, period.

    Safety - Shotguns are incredibly easy to disable for storage. All of them have a safety switch, but any gun enthusiast will tell you that "the safety of a safety isnt safe". You can buy a lockout, which is just a long, plastic-wrapped metal cord with a lock on the end which connects through the action of the shotgun, preventing the slide from closing the action (and therefore disabling the firearm from being shot until that is removed, no matter how hard you try). Moreover and more easily, removing the slide altogether. Its just a metal piece about 1" x 1" x 4" that houses the firing pin. Remove that block and you have a very useless, albeit real looking gun. Put that somewhere safe and you can leave that gun wherever youd like, its completely useless for anything more than an oversized paperweight or coat rack (unless someone has the exact model slide in their pocket to replace the one you took out...doubtful). Shotguns are, again, incredibly simple designs, especially pump-action shotguns. This simplicity of design is a big reason why theyre so damn popular...that and they pack one uva punch.

    As for safes and which kind to buy, you just cant go wrong with any on the market. If you have a Gander Mountain somewhere near you, go there and ask/explore. Do you want a fireproof safe? A safe that can double storing important do ents? Low profile? Large? Custom? Millions of questions and there is no wrong answer. Mine is a a fireproof (not fire resistant, fireproof), 6 rifle storage safe (multiple shelves for handguns) with a file cabinet in the base. It was $1200, but you can spend significantly less than that and get the protection and storage you desire. A non-fireproof, small safe can cost you less than $500.

  7. #132
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    Then you would be incorrect with your assumption about "fear" being the driving force behind my owning a gun.
    I keep a gun in my nightstand because crazy happens all the time.
    We must have different definitions of fear.

  8. #133
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    This is a snippet from the Wikipedia link, so take it for what it's worth.

    Charles Whitman

    "Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit."

    He seemed to be a decent shot since he killed 14 and wounded 32 so it may have been significant.
    interesting read.

    This doesn't answer your question since it really can't be answered with certainty.
    pretty much.

  9. #134
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    "why isn't the idea of armed rebellion against government completely antiquated."

    it is. It's the nutjob paranoid fringe that thinks it's still simplistic 18th century, they're going to be "tread on", and they're all ready to go "irregular" and go "swamp fox" on the US's $1T/year military/police force.

    "rpublic of Texas" ain't been no such thing for 150 years. Secessionist Perry is a rabble-rousing asshole, even if there is a lot of rabble in TX.

  10. #135
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    "why isn't the idea of armed rebellion against government completely antiquated."

    it is. It's the nutjob paranoid fringe that thinks it's still simplistic 18th century, they're going to be "tread on", and they're all ready to go "irregular" and go "swamp fox" on the US's $1T/year military/police force.

    "rpublic of Texas" ain't been no such thing for 150 years. Secessionist Perry is a rabble-rousing asshole, even if there is a lot of rabble in TX.
    Uhhhh....armed rebellion against government antiquated? What do you call what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan?

  11. #136
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    We meant in the US, not a third world country/warzone

  12. #137
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Just sayin, that those low tech rebels seem to be doing pretty damn good against that $1T/year US Military.

  13. #138
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    Right, CC, Iraq and Afghanistan are "insurging" against the predatory, greedy invader.

    The US nutjob paranoid fringe see the US govt as the "invader" of their freedoms and rights.

    If any force contemplating invading USA is lot more worried about the US military than about bunch of paranoid NRA bubba nutjobs.

  14. #139
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Right, CC, Iraq and Afghanistan are "insurging" against the predatory, greedy invader.

    The US nutjob paranoid fringe see the US govt as the "invader" of their freedoms and rights.

    If any force contemplating invading USA is lot more worried about the US military than about bunch of paranoid NRA bubba nutjobs.
    & "predatory, greedy invader"

    Last I checked both of those countries had democratically elected governments.

    And using the military to control civilians is a of a lot harder than you think. Actually, I think it would be impossible in the US unless they just started arresting/killing everyone that was not in uniform.

  15. #140
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    "I would argue that there seem to be far more deaths due to car accidents"

    Well, yes, cars' primary use is to kill people, so that makes sense, while guns' primary use is transportation.
    So then, we should not have a military, as its primary job is to kill people and there's no ability to defend. Peace through strength is a doctrine I believe in. A civilization of pacifists can't and won't work, because some jerk will eventually pick up a big stick.

    What about the probability of needing gun to fight back against civil/military troops herding everybody into concentration camps?
    Considering it's happened before in multiple situations throughout history, I'd say it'd be a decent probability if guns were outlawed to the populace. Even if the probability is low, I think it's useful to defend against that situation. What are the chances that someone drops a bomb on Boston? Probably low. Does that mean that all those disaster response personnel are useless?

    What's the probability of Magic Negro confiscating all legal gun owners' guns? From what the gun nuts and NRA have been saying, it's about 100%, starting from 21 Jan 09.
    No argument here from me Boutons. I agree with you 100% that gun sellers pump up the non-existent threat of "Govmint gone take our guns!" in order to boost sales.

  16. #141
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    If that's true, I got two questions: (1) why isn't the idea of armed rebellion against government completely antiquated. Why didn't the 14th and 15th amendments, along with the drastic changes to the cons ution that began in the new deal era court eschew the idea of an agrarian based republic where a populace distrusted their government and needed guns in the event push came to shove. (2) are seperatist movements, like the rpublic of Texas, validly exercising their right to bear arms as well as the corollary right to rise up against government?
    The Founding Fathers believed that it was the duty of citizens to fight against a corrupt government, more or less. That thought is, I think, a foundation of American ideals.

  17. #142
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Blake, a question: If the ability to purchase guns legally were removed, do yout hink criminals would no longer have guns?

  18. #143
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    "Last I checked both of those countries had democratically elected governments."

    Both countries are still overwhelmingly occupied and dominated by the greedy, predatory invader. Both governments are US puppets, and will fall when the US support withdraws.

    "arresting/killing everyone that was not in uniform."

    as always, paranoid delusions, fantasies with no chance of happening, paranoia fanned by somebody aiming to make money off the paranoia.

  19. #144
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    The Founding Fathers believed that it was the duty of citizens to fight against a corrupt government, more or less. That thought is, I think, a foundation of American ideals.
    Maybe, but part of my question was why didn't the civil war and the cons utional amendments it produced produce a change in that belief?

  20. #145
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    "Last I checked both of those countries had democratically elected governments."

    Both countries are still overwhelmingly occupied and dominated by the greedy, predatory invader. Both governments are US puppets, and will fall when the US support withdraws.

    "arresting/killing everyone that was not in uniform."

    as always, paranoid delusions, fantasies with no chance of happening, paranoia fanned by somebody aiming to make money off the paranoia.
    I'm not saying they would do that. I'm just saying that would be the only way they could come even close to controlling the population. It's been proven over and over that a civilian population willing to go "guerrilla" is virtually impossible to stop.

  21. #146
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    We must have different definitions of fear.
    No, we dont. What we have is different definitions of what constiutes safe.

    You feel safe with a phone.

    I feel safe with a gun.

    Thats all.

  22. #147
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Maybe, but part of my question was why didn't the civil war and the cons utional amendments it produced produce a change in that belief?
    That's the interesting part about the Civil War. The South, in my eyes, was pretty much doing what the Founding Fathers suggested, fighting against a government that had gone corrupt. (Now, granted, the South wasn't some knight in shining armor...)

    But the North kicked their ass, and said, "Nope, you're not leaving". And somehow, it all worked out. For the most part. I always thought that strange.

    I'd still say that anti-authoritarianism runs strong in most Americans, and is part and parcel of the "freedom" that most Americans hold dear.
    Last edited by LnGrrrR; 06-29-2010 at 02:26 PM.

  23. #148
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    Honestly, Bender schooled me up a while back on a gun subject, he is a far better person to ask.

    I want to make it known that I am by no means an expert on guns (or anything for that matter, besides stabilizer bars, go fig). But I know guns well, how to see quality, maintain working order and use down range. I am, admittedly, rusty with my marksmanship (been awhile, until recently), but that comes with constant practice.
    I like collecting and shooting guns, but I'm not that good with pistols, though. I prefer rifles.
    I'm ashamed to say that, in all my guns, I don't own a shotgun. I have two gun safes at home. I don't keep a pistol beside the bed. I would like to, but I don't want it stolen. Sometimes people come by while I am not there (ex-family members). I'm not worried about my son and guns around the house. He is extremely responsible and safe with guns. He even corrects me sometimes, on safety issues.
    Any suggestions? I don't have a safe or gun cabinet yet and live in a duplex.
    they make small, quick open gun safes. Seems like someone could steal a mini-safe though.

    handgun safe

  24. #149
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I don't own a gun, but I support others' rights to own them.

  25. #150
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I keep a double stack 9mm in a yellow 8 1/2 X 11 manilla envelope on my nightstand with a small stack of books/magazines. Not obvious at all.

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