The official "He'll be better in his second year" thread

[objective]

I completely disagree with "the goods."

First off, they wouldn't have had the talent to win a championship had RJ left. Period. They probably don't have it with RJ. Probably; but they're closer to having it than they would have been.

They're a better team with RJ on it. That's not an endorsement of RJ, it's a reflection of the reality. What trade could be made had he gone elsewhere? There wasn't a sign-and-trade to be made and the only way to bolster their chances at a championship would have been to unload Parker; I'm guessing the odds of getting rid of Parker to improve your team in the short-term -- or great enough in the long-term -- to justify punting away maybe Tim's last year of elite play, aren't all that great.

How exactly are they better with RJ? What happened in the playoffs that makes them soooo much better? This is the same RJ that Pop declared he would have rid himself of if RJ hadn't meekly accepted performing fundamental drills for Pop after the season was over.

Secondly, I disagree that RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from doing a Chandler, Rush or similar-type trade. I just don't believe that.

You really think that the Spurs would trade for Chandler, who's an RFA after the season's over? And do you think they'd match the MLE and up deal he'd be offered with RJ on the books? History is full of guys like Chandler who got deals MLE and up, and I'll break them out for you if you don't remember any.

I'm not an RJ fan or part of a fan club. I'm a realist living in the now. Hopefully RJ can become a bench fixture or someone that's not relied upon to star and those games where he does help in the playoffs -- like he did last year -- are looked at as a bonus and not aberrations.

So if hope wins out and he becomes a 'bench fixture' who's 'not relied upon', then he is worth all that? That makes the Spurs better? Fine.

It's one thing to not like RJ, the way he fits, the contract he signed or the fact that he didn't live up to your or overall expectation, but to say the team would be better off without him just comes off as butthurt or ass-whipped.

Here comes the bull . If I or anyone else doesn't like his mediocre defense, or his soft play, or his bad/invisible 3-point shooting, or his long-term contract, or his near-zero statistical improvement over replacement player (per Hollinger), or all the other reasons RJ doesn't help the Spurs it's because of being butthurt or ass-whipped.

The only pro-RJ arguments you have is that "Oh well, make lemonade out of lemons" and "Gosh, maybe he can be a bench player", and that doesn't exactly lay a solid foundation for slinging your asinine 'ass-whipped' comments.

Let me give you a REAL example of being butthurt. After RJ was re-signed I received an unsolicited PM from a member of the RJ Fan Club bragging to me that the Spurs re-upped him and general 'in your face' nonsense. Someone I never had a single PM message with before and didn't even remember the simple, factual, stat-based posts I made in the numerous RJ threads that would get this person so worked up they fixated upon me.

That's some butthurt.

[Blackjack]

Sorry, it comes across as butthurt. It just does. That person wasn't me who left you the PM, was it?

I'm not condoning or siding with the apologist faction, I'm simply stating the reality: Yes, the Spurs are a better team with RJ on its roster. Him not being on the roster and having lesser players, borderline NBA players starting and backing up the small forward position, is not gonna make you a better team via better fit.

As for a potential trade, it's not limited to Chandler or X player. Yes, if they believe that player is the type to put them over the top, I believe they'll make the trade. I'm actually quite pessimistic about a Parker return, so that's part of my thinking.

I'm not trying to bash any of the people I heard in this thread that aren't happy about RJ and his resigning. From the moment he got here, I've been one of the more vocal critics and skeptics. But there comes a point where it just is what it is and you've got to accept it as such. It is about making lemonade or chicken salad.

I don't believe this team is a Wilson Chandler away from a championship. Like RJ, I think he makes them more talented and better because of that talent, but he's not a "fit" for what they need (even if in different ways and I would like to have him).

So until or unless RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from improving their team and odds for a championship for this year and -- Jebus willing -- next year, I just don't see what's to be so bent out of shape from.

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and hoping for the best. Logic says the guy should be better in his second year with the team and hopefully a net positive. Hopefully that's the case and we don't witness the guy crawl up into the fetal position -- located just inside the 3-point line.

[objective]

Sorry, it comes across as butthurt. It just does. That person wasn't me who left you the PM, was it?

no, it wasn't you.

I'm not condoning or siding with the apologist faction, I'm simply stating the reality: Yes, the Spurs are a better team with RJ on its roster. Him not being on the roster and having lesser players, borderline NBA players starting and backing up the small forward position, is not gonna make you a better team via better fit.

Except the information at hand, stats, pbp, observations, clearly suggests that RJ is not any better than supposed lesser players or borderline scrubs. That's one of the core issues that RJ defenders, be they accidental optimists like you or the others, fail to address time and time again.

But there comes a point where it just is what it is and you've got to accept it as such. It is about making lemonade or chicken salad.

Who doesn't accept it? Who has declared that reality is but a facade of RJ's mediocre play and refuses to believe that he's a Spur? I accept that RJ is a Spur, just as I accept that Bonner is a Spur. I hope they do well, just as I hope James Anderson is a stud who makes NBA experts write articles about how if Anderson was healthy enough for workouts he would have been a lottery pick or something similar. I hope for all these things. But I also accept the reality that RJ hasn't been very good for the Spurs. I accept the reality that just because RJ dribbles around some cones for a couple of hours a day for a couple of weeks in front of Pop that he will likely disappoint all over again.

That's honest acceptance.

So until or unless RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from improving their team and odds for a championship for this year and -- Jebus willing -- next year, I just don't see what's to be so bent out of shape from.

It's not about being 'bent out of shape'. It's about realizing the likelihood of the consequences of RJ's deal, both with his play and the ramifications of his contract.

Furthermore, about "RJ's presence" and how it prevents the Spurs from improving their odds this year and years after: Is it too much to ask that people consider how RJ's inflated salary will affect the re-signing of Parker? The re-signing/extension of Hill, whose deal will be up before RJ's? Those are issues that are real. Not hypotheticals like a Chandler trade. How will they be able to afford Parker and Hill with RJ making $10 million to hopefully be a bench fixture?

Is that allowed to even be pondered without lectures of butthurtness and ass-whippedness?

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and hoping for the best. Logic says the guy should be better in his second year with the team and hopefully a net positive. Hopefully that's the case and we don't witness the guy crawl up into the fetal position -- located just inside the 3-point line.

I wouldn't be so confident about the 2nd year thing. Mason was a disaster in his second year. Kurt Thomas wasn't any better. Bonner is Bonner. It seems random. The second year thing off the top of my head seems to apply most to young players still getting better and improving like Hill and Stephen Jackson. Players who maybe not so coincidentally were shackled to the bench in their first year.

A 30 year old RJ getting better is something we all hope for. I just don't feel comfortable in predicting it.

[benefactor]

Sorry Blackjack...you're my boy...but I have to go with objective on this one.

It comes down to what I said earlier...either you believe that RJ will be better an make this team better or you don't. I just can't bring myself to believe he will.

[ohmwrecker]

I didn't see the game, but the stats would indicate that RJ had a good game tonight. I'm not sure I like being lumped in to a RJ "faction" or "apologist" type group. It's kind of condescending and dismissive. I don't really have a good explanation for defending RJ, it just seems like somebody should. I do believe that the talent and potential is there for him to tap into.
I agree with the fact that it comes down to whether or not you believe that RJ can help this team. I'm drunk, but that sounds reasonable.
There is one thing about the whole "not re-signing RJ and make a trade" scenario that I don't get though . . .
What kind of hypothetical trade could the Spurs have realistically made that:
A) would have made the team exponentially better
B) would fall in line with the " all in" strategy
C) would not have left another big, gaping, problematic hole on the roster

I honestly do not see anything the Spurs could have done that is better than what RJ could potentially do in his second year after putting in the effort and willingness to improve.

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't see the game, but the stats would indicate that RJ had a good game tonight. I'm not sure I like being lumped in to a RJ "faction" or "apologist" type group. It's kind of condescending and dismissive. I don't really have a good explanation for defending RJ, it just seems like somebody should. I do believe that the talent and potential is there for him to tap into.
I agree with the fact that it comes down to whether or not you believe that RJ can help this team. I'm drunk, but that sounds reasonable.
There is one thing about the whole "not re-signing RJ and make a trade" scenario that I don't get though . . .
What kind of hypothetical trade could the Spurs have realistically made that:
A) would have made the team exponentially better
B) would fall in line with the " all in" strategy
C) would not have left another big, gaping, problematic hole on the roster

I honestly do not see anything the Spurs could have done that is better than what RJ could potentially do in his second year after putting in the effort and willingness to improve.

A big fat expiring contract would have been a nice trading chip.

[DPG21920]

A big fat expiring contract would have been a nice trading chip.

That is exactly it. People aren't really mad that RJ is back. They are mad that he is back for 4 more years.

All the Spurs did was rob Peter to pay Paul. Unless something with the CBA changes (which seems likely), they are paying the luxury tax next year (they could also pay this year).

RJ could have been kept and been used as a piece to the puzzle (citing the belief he will be better in his 2nd year) or as a trading chip.

The fact he was resigned for so long is the beef. That is the part that does not make sense.

The Spurs could have either kept him for 15M and traded him or kept him if he performed. They could have also let him walk if he opted out (which is extremely unlikely unless there was a pre-arranged deal) and filled the void with someone cheaper and more upside (Chandler), even if that player would not make some quantum leap in the Spurs chances.

[Obstructed_View]

Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era le hopes.

[Manufan909]

Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era le hopes.

Man that's a great analogy, but VERY DEPRESSING. So depressing I don't even need to add an emo smiley.

[DrSteffo]

I will never see RJ as a big fat granite block, more like empty space or maybe a black hole That said I hope he improves and becomes a decent contributor even though inconsistent.

[yavozerb]

That is exactly it. People aren't really mad that RJ is back. They are mad that he is back for 4 more years.

All the Spurs did was rob Peter to pay Paul. Unless something with the CBA changes (which seems likely), they are paying the luxury tax next year (they could also pay this year).

RJ could have been kept and been used as a piece to the puzzle (citing the belief he will be better in his 2nd year) or as a trading chip.

The fact he was resigned for so long is the beef. That is the part that does not make sense.

The Spurs could have either kept him for 15M and traded him or kept him if he performed. They could have also let him walk if he opted out (which is extremely unlikely unless there was a pre-arranged deal) and filled the void with someone cheaper and more upside (Chandler), even if that player would not make some quantum leap in the Spurs chances.

New morning, same old stuff....

Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era le hopes.

, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

[DPG21920]

New morning, same old stuff....



, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

You write about the same stuff as well. If you don't like conversation about RJ in an RJ thread then don't click.

For every post someone makes about RJ, you have one that is .

[Muser]

RJ's shot does look better..let's hope it actually is.

[ohmwrecker]

RJ's shot does look better..let's hope it actually is.

The mechanics of his shot are much improved. If he keeps the form, it is only a matter of time before they start to fall at a consistent clip. There is no more hesitation and his confidence seems strong. He is showing the results of his hard work. It will take a little time for him to put it all together on the court. He has to get into some real game time situations to really test himself, but I think he looks good so far. Pretty much what I expected . . .

I don't think anyone likes the length of the contract, Based on his performance last year, his age and the nature of his game it doesn't make a lot of sense, but you have to appreciate his at ude and willingness to change and adapt his game to become a better fit in this system. Whether you like it or not, it's a done deal. The only reason I support RJ and want him to do well and believe that he can is because, I support the Spurs and want them to do well and believe that they can.

Simple.

No ing. No crying. No gay.

[yavozerb]

You write about the same stuff as well. If you don't like conversation about RJ in an RJ thread then don't click.

For every post someone makes about RJ, you have one that is .

I didn't realize this thread was strictly about RJ..Correct me if I am wrong but isnt blair, temple, and mcdyess all in there second year as well? Just wondering

[DPG21920]

I didn't realize this thread was strictly about RJ..Correct me if I am wrong but isnt blair, temple, and mcdyess all in there second year as well? Just wondering

Did I say this was "just an RJ thread"? I said this is a thread about RJ (2nd year players).

If you don't want to read about RJ comments, don't click on threads that he is involved in.

[Obstructed_View]

, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

Sorry to depress you with the truth. I don't like it any more than you do. If you clicked on a thread with conversations about RJ expecting someone to be blowing sunshine up his ass, wait until you see TPark as the most recent poster.

[Blackjack]

Sorry Blackjack...you're my boy...but I have to go with objective on this one.

It comes down to what I said earlier...either you believe that RJ will be better an make this team better or you don't. I just can't bring myself to believe he will.

Nothing to apologize for. I'm not attacking you or anyone else that happens to share your belief. In fact, most the people in this thread (actually, all) are people I usually associate myself with as a poster and really respect and enjoy. So this isn't something that is personal or has me losing sleep.

To the overreaching point and to the lesser but seemingly provocative (i.e., butthurt), it goes like this.

To the latter, it's not butthurt to not like the contract, the way he fits or to be disappointed with the fact the Spurs are in this position, stuck with a player they should have never traded for. Good trade in value, the logic and rationale weren't terrible, but the player was never going to be what they needed him to be. That's not second-guessing on my part, it's what I've always believed.

Where an element of butthurt comes in is when it gets to extremes. Just like last year when expectations were impossibly high and doomed to never be met, the notion that RJ is somehow a terrible player -- on the level of a RMJ -- is putting expectation and hopes at just about an impossibly low level. There is middle ground.

When you immediately jump to the conclusion that a player of RJ's caliber -- who's still near the prime of his career -- will give you no more than what he did last year, to suggest that that RJ was the best the Spurs could hope for, seems to fly in the face of logic. To suggest his contract will be the end of Parker's tenure or detrimental to the team moving forward and their championship aspirations with Tim, is, again, jumping to conclusion -- who's to say contracts come to terms with before the CBA expires won't be grandfathered in or even become part of an '05-like provision, something along the lines of what happened to Finley in Dallas? I can almost guarantee one or both will happen.

To Parker, I don't believe he's coming back. I don't believe he's a max player and I believe he'll get a max offer. I'm pretty sure the Spurs are aware of that as well. I don't see anything that leads me to believe RJ's contract will prevent them from chasing a championship this year and, maybe, next year (depending on CBA negotiations). Any way you slice it, I see this franchise inevitably turning into the Utah Jazz of the early '00's. I don't see any way around the fact that the Spurs will become a good to mediocre team once Tim's no longer an elite player, Ginobili's 2 years older and whether Parker's here or not. I just don't see a way around it, so I have a hard time being up in arms over RJ's contract.

I do believe RJ will be better in his second year. I don't believe he'll be what people expected, thought or hoped him to be last year, but I do believe he'll be better. I believe he's a decent weapon to have on the bench, even if one they can't always fit on the belt or operate to the best of its ability -- it's not all that terrible to have a player that can get you 20 points and/or 10 rebounds on a given night. When the guy played with Manu, he did pretty well. When he was forced to play without Tim and Tony, the guy looked like he could ball a bit. The guy had a career year the season prior and then followed it up with probably his worst. That doesn't happen without extenuating cir stance. The guy changed teams, had responsibilities and roles completely changed and was asked to do things he couldn't or hasn't done in years. The guy was lost; a second year in this system will definitely benefit him (the extent of which remains to be seen).

As I've written here and elsewhere, the Spurs had a few goals they've been looking to achieve since bowing out to the Mavs in '09: up the talent level, address need and develop the requisite "corporate knowledge."

Unfortunately they didn't upgrade their talent with the best-fitting personnel and because of a closing window they've been forced to make it work because they don't have the time to rebuild on the fly again. RJ has to be a part of that corporate knowledge (apparently, Bonner as well, in their view), since there's no perfect piece to add or the time to make another different but ill-fitted piece work.

I wouldn't have done the initial trade. I would have beat down the doors of GS to get Jackson and then Maggette if that failed (I'd have rather paid $10M per to Maggette to be a 6th Man). But once it became clear RJ's intention was to opt out and the Spurs could either to what they did or replace him with NBA fodder or unprovens, I believe they did the best they could.

If the contract becomes a problem, if his presence prevents the Spurs from making a move to better their team this year or next ... I'll have no problem acknowledging so. But many have already crossed that bridge and we've yet to even get there.

Wait-and-see. It ain't like we won't have enough time to about it if need be.

[Obstructed_View]

I liked the trade, though I was disappointed by it (I thought we'd gotten Al Jefferson). After the way Bowen was underused toward the end, it was nice just getting someone who had the size to play the position and might have a prayer of moving laterally when someone was in front of him.

And I don't think RJ had all that bad a season, at least not from his standards. If you look at his numbers, the only thing preventing him from scoring the way he had was his attempts. That means he's playing about as well as can be expected at his game. What we'd all hoped when he came in was that he could use his abilities when they were needed and maybe decide to use his atheltic ability to concentrate on defense. Too bad he did neither.

It's pretty clear that RJ would never have opted out if there weren't an under-the-table deal for him already in place.

[iminol]

[benefactor]

Well...he laid his first real egg of the year. He deserves the bump.

lol RJ
lol 40 million

[z0sa]

Tony laid a humongous egg too, in case you missed it.

[benefactor]

Nope...I've already lol'ed him too. See the "ducks" thread.

[lefty]

TP and Bonner will be better in their 2nd year

[widowmaker]

This was Tp not being aggressive.