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  1. #51
    U Have Bad Understanding Sportcamper's Avatar
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    Point of order...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

    Cost of recharge
    The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.

  2. #52
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    It's pretty gross seeing the President of the freaking country going to such an extent to pimp a specific company that he now owns.

  3. #53
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    It's pretty gross seeing the President of the freaking country going to such an extent to pimp a specific company that he now owns.
    You mean "we" own.

  4. #54
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    Yeah, base is $41,000. If they could have kept it under $10K Obama could have followed Hitlers model and called it the Voltswagen.
    I see what you did there.

  5. #55
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Point of order...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

    Cost of recharge
    The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.
    Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.

  6. #56
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.
    Yeah, bad reference from whoever wrote that, probably Obama.

    But the car is still useful. I read that most commutes are less then 40 miles anyway.

  7. #57
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I see what you did there.


    Glad someone did. I thought the people in here would be more history literate.

  8. #58
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It should be cheaper, I would think. Electric engines are more efficient, so I've heard.
    Way more efficient... in the vicinity of 80+% IIRC.
    Combustion on the other hand is around 50%...

    The challenge with electric is in the batteries. Both on overall charge, charge time, and longevity...
    Yes, but by the time electricity gets to our homes, it's only something like 50% efficient.

    How long before I have to replace the batteries again?

  9. #59
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.
    No , or the fact they are made in countries that don't have the same environmental concerns we do.

  10. #60
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Point of order...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

    Cost of recharge
    The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.
    Wait one minute....

    A favorite cup of coffee at a Starbucks costs around $4, doesn't it?

    40 miles on $4.00....

    Where do they sell my favorite coffee for 80 cents? Is this something computated by a journalist who likes cheap coffee?

  11. #61
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Where did you get your $1.50? It takes about 100Kwh for a full charge. By my calculations I'm paying about 10.25 cents per Kwh.

    Thats more like $10.25 to charge it to drive 40 miles or about 26 cents a mile.

    By comparison, a gas car that gets 20mpg at 3.50 a gallon costs 17.5 cents a mile to fuel.

    *note* I'm currently checking on that 100Kwh figure that I saw published.
    I agree. The "favorite cup of coffee" angle doesn't pan out either.

  12. #62
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.
    No kidding. Can you plug it in every 36 miles? how long does a full charge take?

    (10% safety factor)

    God... The way articles fool lib s.

  13. #63
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    One more thing.

    Get rid of the dams tax credit. No subsidies, only people who have decent money will buy these puppies anyway.

    Aren't you liberals in favor of having the rich pay more, not less?

  14. #64
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Yes, but by the time electricity gets to our homes, it's only something like 50% efficient.
    Hmm... no. I'm not talking about efficiency of generating the power source, I'm talking about effective efficiency of two different engines. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

    That said, I don't buy that 50% number you threw up there at all, unless you're restricting all generated electricity to coal. You can only make gas from oil, and extraction, refining and transportation is, at the very least, as inefficient as coal electricity generation. But electricity can also be generated in many more ways: nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, geothermal, gas. Most, if not those all of those, completely remove the need of transportation, since can be connected directly into the grid.

    How long before I have to replace the batteries again?
    Right now the real question is: How cheap/expensive is to replace that battery pack again? And the answer is: a lot cheaper than 5 years ago.
    The good news is that batteries are basically used on almost everything right now, and the technological push is always there to make better, cheaper and longer lasting batteries.

    And FWIW, the whole green vs non-green doesn't really concern me at all, that's why it's something I haven't specifically touched upon in my posts.

  15. #65
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    No kidding. Can you plug it in every 36 miles? how long does a full charge take?
    (10% safety factor)
    Read up on Level III fast chargers. Those things can top off a Leaf's 24KWh battery pack in about 30 or so minutes. Nissan is installing about 200+ of them in five states as part of their initial rollout. And yes, there's a government grant for that.

    I think this tech needs to mature. But once the chargers are out there, and it has evolved for 4 or 5 years, it can be a good alternative to look at.

  16. #66
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.
    This is a non-issue if you ask me. Lead-acid batteries used in cars today are more hazardous than what's used on EVs (NiMH mostly or Lithium-Ion in rare cases). The automotive industry has done a great job of organizing ways to dispose of them, and 98% of car batteries today are actually recycled in the US. There's simply no reason why this would be any different with electric vehicles.

  17. #67
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    This is a non-issue if you ask me. Lead-acid batteries used in cars today are more hazardous than what's used on EVs (NiMH mostly or Lithium-Ion in rare cases). The automotive industry has done a great job of organizing ways to dispose of them, and 98% of car batteries today are actually recycled in the US. There's simply no reason why this would be any different with electric vehicles.
    Lead acid batteries are effectively completely recyclable. Are lithium ion?

  18. #68
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Lead acid batteries are effectively completely recyclable. Are lithium ion?
    Sure. There's actually no lithium metal in Lithium-Ion batteries, just lithium salts in an organic solvent used in the electrolyte. The anode is normally graphite and the cathode metal oxide. The biggest reason you want to actually have a recycling program for them is for safety reasons. We're all well aware that if punctured and exposed to high heat, they can explode.

  19. #69
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Sure. There's actually no lithium metal in Lithium-Ion batteries, just lithium salts in an organic solvent used in the electrolyte. The anode is normally graphite and the cathode metal oxide. The biggest reason you want to actually have a recycling program for them is for safety reasons. We're all well aware that if punctured and exposed to high heat, they can explode.
    I'll admit, I know little on recycling these batteries. Still, my concern is that I don't believe these to be the future. Battery cars at some point, YES. Just not at our technological level. No reason that we cannot achieve such goals. I just know we aren't there yet.

    How much do these these batteries cost, and with how much of a life? these batteries lose storage capacity over time of usage. 40 mile range today, maybe 37 after a year, then 35, etc... they also increase in resistance (source impedance.) Acceleration will also notable decrease with time.

    Again, how much does a replacement set of batteries cost? Do they need replaced every 5 years, or less if improperly maintained? How many people properly maintain things? properly maintaining them means allowing nearly full discharge before recharging. How many people will do that?

    Count me out as for advocating our current level of technology for the public. Let the YUPPIE's and other rich people buy these as status symbols, but do not subsidize them.

    Why do so many people thing the free market isn't up to the task of the future, without subsidies? I love this country, but the belief others have that we cannot succeed without Uncle Sam's helping hand pisses me the off.
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 07-31-2010 at 10:01 PM.

  20. #70
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    Does anyone know why barry cut the hydrogen car out of his companie's manufacturing?

  21. #71
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Does anyone know why barry cut the hydrogen car out of his companie's manufacturing?
    His hot air is more effective.

  22. #72
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    Honda has a hydrogen pilot running, where else?, in CA.

    Hydrogen fueling stations, splitting water, run off solar. Very cool, but I doubt that it scales up. I read an article where there was new solar panel that split water directly.

    I suppose you have to have distilled water, since minerals and salt (and fracking fluids) probably impede/prevent efficient splitting.

    Corrosive, explosive hyrdrogen generation and transport requires an entirely new infrastructure, so if there is way to avoid transporting it, like generating it all locally, that's a key advance.

    I guess fuel-cells last longer than batteries. We'll see.

    First generation Prius batteries are dying, and costing $5000 to replace, nullifying, exceeding any savings in using batteries rather than gasoline, forgetting about the premium to buy a tinny Prius.

    The Volt's long guarantee, if it covers battery replacement, might hurt GM, the way Chrysler's 50K mile drive train guarantee hurt Chrysler decades ago.

    Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.

  23. #73
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Volts long guarantee? I personally don't consider 100,000 miles long considering the estimated cost to replace the battery pack is $10,000.

  24. #74
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    Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.

    Never heard of the EV1?

  25. #75
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Honda has a hydrogen pilot running, where else?, in CA.

    Hydrogen fueling stations, splitting water, run off solar. Very cool, but I doubt that it scales up. I read an article where there was new solar panel that split water directly.

    I suppose you have to have distilled water, since minerals and salt (and fracking fluids) probably impede/prevent efficient splitting.

    Corrosive, explosive hyrdrogen generation and transport requires an entirely new infrastructure, so if there is way to avoid transporting it, like generating it all locally, that's a key advance.

    I guess fuel-cells last longer than batteries. We'll see.

    First generation Prius batteries are dying, and costing $5000 to replace, nullifying, exceeding any savings in using batteries rather than gasoline, forgetting about the premium to buy a tinny Prius.

    The Volt's long guarantee, if it covers battery replacement, might hurt GM, the way Chrysler's 50K mile drive train guarantee hurt Chrysler decades ago.

    Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.
    You can't really use the Clarity as an example of the feasibility of Hydrogen if you are intellectually honest. This is basically a PR and research project for Honda. You can't buy one if you wanted to. You can only lease one. The estimated cost to build them is $300,000 each.

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