No Limit betting question

[Lebowski Brickowski]

My buddy took me to a long-standing tournament last night. This thing has been going on for like 8 years. It’s my first time to play there. I'm the "new-guy" last night

I’m a VERY inexperienced tournament player. I only have ever played small, neighborhood cash games.

Anyway, I won the whole damn thing.

But afterwards, my buddy jumped down my throat a bit about a move I made.

Brief rundown:
Final Table: 10 players

I have A 10 spades:

I raise and the short-stack calls all-in.

After the round, there are 4 of us left in the hand.

Flop is Q 10 7 w/ one spade

I figure I might not have the strongest hand but I have a decent draw and with a big bet I’m comfortable making it hard for someone else to try to hit his straight, and I’m comfortable going heads up vs. the all-in b/c he had been making terrible moves all night, throwing his chips around and catching some breaks. Also, I've folded every hand for the last 45 minutes and these people have already started respecting my pre and post flop moves.

I raise 10 thousand

Apparently, I should NOT have raised here. Instead, according to my buddy, everyone should have checked to the river so there would be the greatest chance of eliminating the small stack. Apparently, by opening up a side pot, I broke some unspoken tournament rule, especially seeing as how I didn’t have a monster hand.

I end up hitting the set and beating a straight draw who had the best pre-flop hand.

He couldn’t convince me that I made a breach of etiquette and that he wasn’t just upset that he folded his straight-draw.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

[Drachen]

My buddy took me to a long-standing tournament last night. This thing has been going on for like 8 years. It’s my first time to play there. I'm the "new-guy" last night

I’m a VERY inexperienced tournament player. I only have ever played small, neighborhood cash games.

Anyway, I won the whole damn thing.

But afterwards, my buddy jumped down my throat a bit about a move I made.

Brief rundown:
Final Table: 10 players

I have A 10 spades:

I raise and the short-stack calls all-in.

After the round, there are 4 of us left in the hand.

Flop is Q 10 7 w/ one spade

I figure I might not have the strongest hand but I have a decent draw and with a big bet I’m comfortable making it hard for someone else to try to hit his straight, and I’m comfortable going heads up vs. the all-in b/c he had been making terrible moves all night, throwing his chips around and catching some breaks. Also, I've folded every hand for the last 45 minutes and these people have already started respecting my pre and post flop moves.

I raise 10 thousand

Apparently, I should NOT have raised here. Instead, according to my buddy, everyone should have checked to the river so there would be the greatest chance of eliminating the small stack. Apparently, by opening up a side pot, I broke some unspoken tournament rule, especially seeing as how I didn’t have a monster hand.

I end up hitting the set and beating a straight draw who had the best pre-flop hand.

He couldn’t convince me that I made a breach of etiquette and that he wasn’t just upset that he folded his straight-draw.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

I have found that people who lose get angry. Especially when they fold a winning hand on their way to losing. It's best to use that for future rounds. If you fold a winning hand, and want to misdirect people about how you play, make it apparent what you folded after the hand is done, or lie and say you folded a bad hand, whatever suits your immediate purpose. It doesn't help you at all to get all pissed off. Anyway, you are there to win, not to make it more comfortable for other losers to feel better about themselves having a small hand in taking out the short stack. It sounds like you played this perfectly (especially the comment about how you had been folding hands left and right and now they respect your raises). Poker is a game of psychology as well as skill and luck, and as long as you followed the rules of poker (not some pussy extra kumbayah "lets take this guy out together" rules), then you have nothing to worry about.

[MannyIsGod]

Its kinda iffy. Middle pair isn't a very good hand with so many in the pot so I wouldn't bet because what are you going to do if you get raised? I think your play sucked and I can see why your buddy was annoyed.

The unspoken rule is kind of touch and go in this situation. With so many people in the pot you can't realistically expect everyone to just check it down unless they hit a huge hand.

On one hand though, if you want to be invited back its usually best not to stir the pot too much. Learn their unspoken rules and tend to stick to them or risk being told not to come back.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, middle pair top kicker with a back door flush draw is not a good draw.

[Cry Havoc]

BTW, middle pair top kicker with a back door flush draw is not a good draw.

No hand is a "bad draw" if you play it right.

You always play the other people, not the cards. If everyone is limping in and trying to hang around, you are probably good to go. A 10 with that flop on the board has a number of outs if you're down early. An ace, another 10, a straight chance, and a flush draw. Even a queen helps him here if no one else has paired the ladies.

If no one else on the board was claiming the queen, he's very likely in good position there and a strong raise scares off any potential runner runner assholes on the river. More importantly, the flop likely means that no one has him locked out, unless there's a creeper hiding double Qs or 7s in the pocket. It's possible, but that's why you pay attention in a tournament like that, so you can make calls based on how other people have been playing it. It would be really hard to limp in with a set when there's both a flush and a straight draw on the board... if someone had three of a kind, they'd be pushing HARD to get people who were on the draw to knock them out of the hand.

Basically, it's a judgment call, and it's more about intuition. So if you think you had the hand won (or you could get others to fall out), even without the set, it's a good call.

As for the folkways of the tournament that your friend was claiming, screw that. You play a tournament to win. TO WIN. That's all that matters. As long as you aren't slow rolling someone, don't worry about it. People who need "help" (i.e., your check) to chop a cripple's leg off shouldn't be playing tournament poker in the first place.

[mookie2001]

need to get another GTG pokernight, i would have to show manny the INEZ SUPERSYSTEM

[MannyIsGod]

No hand is a "bad draw" if you play it right.

You always play the other people, not the cards. If everyone is limping in and trying to hang around, you are probably good to go. A 10 with that flop on the board has a number of outs if you're down early. An ace, another 10, a straight chance, and a flush draw. Even a queen helps him here if no one else has paired the ladies.

Sorry dude, but this is terrible terrible terrible. Passive players that limp in in live games almost always hang around - especially if they have any piece of the flop. Bottom pair, gutshot, backdoor draws - it doesn't matter - they're going to call.

Building a multiway pot with a marginal hand is one of the worst mistakes you can make in any no limit game.

If no one else on the board was claiming the queen, he's very likely in good position there and a strong raise scares off any potential runner runner assholes on the river. More importantly, the flop likely means that no one has him locked out, unless there's a creeper hiding double Qs or 7s in the pocket. It's possible, but that's why you pay attention in a tournament like that, so you can make calls based on how other people have been playing it. It would be really hard to limp in with a set when there's both a flush and a straight draw on the board... if someone had three of a kind, they'd be pushing HARD to get people who were on the draw to knock them out of the hand.

CH, you sound incredibly easy to trap. Why can't someone be holding Queen/Rag? Because no one bet? Why can't someone be holding a set? Why can't someone have KJ?

Why would you want to knock someone off a draw here? If you have a set you want a draw to come along every single time as long as you make it a mistake for them to call with your bet size.

In any event, you're essentially playing this hand as a bluff because you don't want to go to a showdown. Bluffing against 4 others in a NL hand is pretty damn terrible in almost every situation.

Basically, it's a judgment call, and it's more about intuition. So if you think you had the hand won (or you could get others to fall out), even without the set, it's a good call.

As I said above, if you're playing to make them fold then you're playing a bluff and bluffing into four others is just about one of the biggest leaks I can think of.

As for the folkways of the tournament that your friend was claiming, screw that. You play a tournament to win. TO WIN. That's all that matters. As long as you aren't slow rolling someone, don't worry about it. People who need "help" (i.e., your check) to chop a cripple's leg off shouldn't be playing tournament poker in the first place.

In many situations you up your chances more by checking it down and almost always ensuring the player is knocked out then by chancing letting him basically quadruple his stack.

In fact I think its in most. You def don't have enough equity with middle pair TK to make the bet worthwhile when you consider that.

[Drachen]

No hand is a "bad draw" if you play it right.

You always play the other people, not the cards. If everyone is limping in and trying to hang around, you are probably good to go. A 10 with that flop on the board has a number of outs if you're down early. An ace, another 10, a straight chance, and a flush draw. Even a queen helps him here if no one else has paired the ladies.

If no one else on the board was claiming the queen, he's very likely in good position there and a strong raise scares off any potential runner runner assholes on the river. More importantly, the flop likely means that no one has him locked out, unless there's a creeper hiding double Qs or 7s in the pocket. It's possible, but that's why you pay attention in a tournament like that, so you can make calls based on how other people have been playing it. It would be really hard to limp in with a set when there's both a flush and a straight draw on the board... if someone had three of a kind, they'd be pushing HARD to get people who were on the draw to knock them out of the hand.

Basically, it's a judgment call, and it's more about intuition. So if you think you had the hand won (or you could get others to fall out), even without the set, it's a good call.

As for the folkways of the tournament that your friend was claiming, screw that. You play a tournament to win. TO WIN. That's all that matters. As long as you aren't slow rolling someone, don't worry about it. People who need "help" (i.e., your check) to chop a cripple's leg off shouldn't be playing tournament poker in the first place.

Thank you CH, perfectly put. If you want to get better, you want to play with people who are trying to win the tournament, not people who want handicapping rules to cover one or all of their lack of skill, balls, or intuition. Will you lose more playing with good players, yes. If you LEARN from that situation, then you will be better for it.

[MannyIsGod]

need to get another GTG pokernight, i would have to show manny the INEZ SUPERSYSTEM

Come to NM and I'll take you to the casinos around here. The locals...well...they might as well all walk around ATM signs around their neck.

[Muser]

You won who the cares about some etiquette.

[MannyIsGod]

It really depends on stack size, but the reason that is a unspoken rule is because in many situations where you have a 3 way pot it is far more beneficial to all involved to check it down and maximize the number of hands at the end in order to knock out the AI.

You guys keep talking about playing "to win" but that IS the play to win a lot of the time. The more people you add to the pot the dicier it gets and if there is already an appreciable side pot then it also changes this (getting someone to fold and winning a side pot may appreciably increase your chances more than knocking a person out depending on stack sizes etc) but its typically sound.

[Drachen]

I had a guy offer to fight me because we were heads up, I was short stack (not by a ton though), and he kept pushing me out of the pot with crap because he was betting big. When he had a hand, he would bet more conservatively. He did this for 7 straight hands. I was tired of it, so I got a pair of ducks, he raised a huge amount pre-flop, then the flop came out deuce, K, J. He raised again, I reraised and then he pushed me all in. Yes he had nothing, I came out on top and he was on tilt so I took him out 3 hands later. He got all pissed about me calling his raise on a lowly pair of ducks, I told him that his cards had been showing for 7-8 hands already (then explained what this meant). He wanted to fight and ended up getting thrown out.

If I play the cards, I slowly blind out, unless I get lucky and pull a good (better) hand one of the times he pulls a good hand. If I play the player I win (and I did).

[MannyIsGod]

I had a guy offer to fight me because we were heads up, I was short stack (not by a ton though), and he kept pushing me out of the pot with crap because he was betting big. When he had a hand, he would bet more conservatively. He did this for 7 straight hands. I was tired of it, so I got a pair of ducks, he raised a huge amount pre-flop, then the flop came out deuce, K, J. He raised again, I reraised and then he pushed me all in. Yes he had nothing, I came out on top and he was on tilt so I took him out 3 hands later. He got all pissed about me calling his raise on a lowly pair of ducks, I told him that his cards had been showing for 7-8 hands already (then explained what this meant). He wanted to fight and ended up getting thrown out.

If I play the cards, I slowly blind out (unless I get lucky and pull a good (better)) hand one of the times he pulls a good hand. If I play the player I win (and I did).

I'm all for making stands. That was a stupid one. Congrats on winning.

[Drachen]

I'm all for making stands. That was a stupid one. Congrats on winning.

Like I said, when you can pretty much see the guy's cards, its not making a stand, its a smart play. Sad part is, he could have beat me because he was playing decent, then as soon as we got heads up, he started to pull this crap.

Put me in the same situation and I will make the same move 100 out of 100 times.

Could I have waited for a better hand to "make the stand"? Sure. Could I have been caught waiting until it was too late. Absolutely.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry dude, but this is terrible terrible terrible. Passive players that limp in in live games almost always hang around - especially if they have any piece of the flop. Bottom pair, gutshot, backdoor draws - it doesn't matter - they're going to call.

Building a multiway pot with a marginal hand is one of the worst mistakes you can make in any no limit game.

Which is exactly why you make it EXPENSIVE for them to limp in. Your method allows people to have free cards when they are (likely) holding nothing, not even a pair. If they're ALWAYS going to call, they probably won't be sitting at the final table, because you just sit on a good hand and then punish them. Good players are going to turn loose of hands if it's too expensive for them to shoot for a runner runner, or they need one of about 8 cards in the deck on the river.

I don't understand why you think limpers are so adamant about calling -- that's why they're called limpers! They're trying to check for cheap cards. You push limpers over, not check them to keep them in the pot.

CH, you sound incredibly easy to trap. Why can't someone be holding Queen/Rag? Because no one bet? Why can't someone be holding a set? Why can't someone have KJ?

And you sound like you only play a hand when you're 100% positive it's the best at the table. How often does that happen? Once every 40 or 50 hands?

Again, it's a judgment call. He'd been folding for a solid 45 minutes. The other players at the table are going to respect his hand with a flush/straight draw out on the flop. When he raises, he's representing something tough to the other players -- which is why the limpers will often lay down here.

Why would you want to knock someone off a draw here? If you have a set you want a draw to come along every single time as long as you make it a mistake for them to call with your bet size.

Because if they HIT that draw, your set is trash. A straight OR a flush beats a set, you realize this, correct? You let a someone who's just check/calling and hanging around stay in the pot for cheap, suddenly you're sitting across from a hand that's completely got you beat, and you find it really hard to muck it because you were recently top hand on the table.

In any event, you're essentially playing this hand as a bluff because you don't want to go to a showdown. Bluffing against 4 others in a NL hand is pretty damn terrible in almost every situation.

He's bluffing? There's ONE over card on the table, and even if someone hits that with a queen in the pocket, there's a good chance you can make them think they're beat too, with what's on the table. This is why situational, positional play is so important, and the pre-flop betting is the absolute key to the game. From the sound of it, no one was making any strong moves to push other people out of the pot, which means at the worst he's got to beat a pair of ladies, and has several outs to do so, even if the other person calls out his two 10s.

As I said above, if you're playing to make them fold then you're playing a bluff and bluffing into four others is just about one of the biggest leaks I can think of.

2nd high pair with an ace in the pocket, a straight, and a flush draw on the table is a bluff to you? What do you do with the other 8 hours in a poker game you play in where you muck your hand because you aren't dealt pocket aces or kings?

In many situations you up your chances more by checking it down and almost always ensuring the player is knocked out then by chancing letting him basically quadruple his stack.

Again, it all depends. He called all-in already on the first raise, which means his back was to the wall and he was probably relatively desperate, playing something like J-8 suited or maybe a baby suited connector.

In fact I think its in most. You def don't have enough equity with middle pair TK to make the bet worthwhile when you consider that.

Even though he'd been folding for 45 minutes? Manny, I see what you're thinking but you're only playing the cards, not the people. When he raised pre-flop and then on the flop, he was representing either a pair of queens or something even better. Most players who are trying to just hang around are going to fall out when there's a pre-flop raise and then another raise by the same player on the flop, particularly if that player has been playing very tight.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm all for making stands. That was a stupid one. Congrats on winning.

Player. Not cards.

It doesn't count as a "stand" when you wait to flop a nut flush from Big Slick and turn down everything else.

[MannyIsGod]

You picked almost the worst hand in the world to pull that move and you did it after a flop which makes it even worse. Its good you had a read but why don't you do it before the flop?

Its not about being blinded out or playing the way you did, because IMO both are bad. There are better alternatives and that doesn't mean you have to be "blinded out".

No one listens when I talk poker on here though so . I learned my lesson and stopped talking about it on here for a long time but I got sucked in today.

[Cry Havoc]

You picked almost the worst hand in the world to pull that move and you did it after a flop which makes it even worse. Its good you had a read but why don't you do it before the flop?

He did. He got massively raised pre-flop and called.

Its not about being blinded out or playing the way you did, because IMO both are bad. There are better alternatives and that doesn't mean you have to be "blinded out".

You don't always have the option to sit and wait on a great hand, especially in heads-up. Chances are, when you hit it, your opponent will have rags and just fold you the BB or SB. Then you make nothing on him.

No one listens when I talk poker on here though so . I learned my lesson and stopped talking about it on here for a long time but I got sucked in today.

Poor Manny, no one listens to him.

[Drachen]

You picked almost the worst hand in the world to pull that move and you did it after a flop which makes it even worse. Its good you had a read but why don't you do it before the flop?

Its not about being blinded out or playing the way you did, because IMO both are bad. There are better alternatives and that doesn't mean you have to be "blinded out".

No one listens when I talk poker on here though so . I learned my lesson and stopped talking about it on here for a long time but I got sucked in today.

Ok, well then, thank you for your expertise. If I need to know statistics on the fly about what possibility I have of winning a hand based on the cards on the table, I really (not sarcastically) think that you would be the guy to go to. However since each hand isn't played in a vacuum and is related to every other hand that has been played I have to stick with my way of playing the player.

[Stringer_Bell]

You won who the cares about some etiquette.

This.

A bet is a bet, and if the other players don't want to partake they can fold. "Oh, but they might not invite you back"...big in deal, you'll always be the n00b that came in and beat them on the first try. HOWEVER, it needs to be said that if they didn't raise issue with you about it and it was only your friend that brought it up - take his advice. But if the others ed, 'em and take their in' money.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

No hand is a "bad draw" if you play it right.

You always play the other people, not the cards. If everyone is limping in and trying to hang around, you are probably good to go. A 10 with that flop on the board has a number of outs if you're down early. An ace, another 10, a straight chance, and a flush draw. Even a queen helps him here if no one else has paired the ladies.

If no one else on the board was claiming the queen, he's very likely in good position there and a strong raise scares off any potential runner runner assholes on the river. More importantly, the flop likely means that no one has him locked out

That's where I was coming from. The thing where I could have messed up is that IF there was QQ somewhere, or even a nut str8, the people that I would have made on those hands all chked after the flop (I guess according to the house rule.) I misread that as weakness, not kindness, and it could have bit me. Fortunately, my big raise folded the guy who WOULD have hit the (low) str8 (my friend) and the high str8 didn't hit.

The hand set me up for my run.

[Canibspur]

Yes you shouldve checked middle pair on the flop. Simply bc at that point you dont know what anyone else has, including the all in player. He couldve pushed with QT and then youdve been dominated.

The whole purpose of checking is to have everyones hole cards have a chance to knock the all in player out. In a tourny this is always the proper play bc the common goal is to knock out whos all in, putting you and everyone else left closer to the money.

Youre friend is wrong by saying you should always check it down when there is an all in. Everyone, theoretically, should check until they have a made hand, two pair or better. Anything less shouldnt be bet. You may be good with your ten on the flop but what if the all in hit the queen? Then what if your bet makes whoever hit the 7 fold and he wouldve hit 2 pair on the river? He wouldve knocked out the all in but instead your bet just got the all in 5x his chips to start the hand! Bad.

It can get much more complicated than this but this is the simplest I can explain it to you or anyone with the same question. Hope it makes sense to you and helps you improve your tournament play. Congrats on the win tho.


PS... some r is going to complain about something at every tourny. You have those players that think bc the watch it on tv they have learned it all, usually those are the biggest fish and easy money. Just figure out what they say youre "supposed" to do and use it against them to take their money.

[Cry Havoc]

That's where I was coming from. The thing where I could have messed up is that IF there was QQ somewhere, or even a nut str8, the people that I would have made on those hands all chked after the flop (I guess according to the house rule.) I misread that as weakness, not kindness, and it could have bit me. Fortunately, my big raise folded the guy who WOULD have hit the (low) str8 (my friend) and the high str8 didn't hit.

The hand set me up for my run.

Which is why I hate rules like that in general. Slow rolling makes sense because you're deliberately attempting to piss someone off, and it's poor sportsmanship.

So now you're confused because rather than playing the cards or the players, you have to worry about their motives via some unwritten tourney rule. It's stupid, and it can definitely be taken advantage of.

[Cry Havoc]

Yes you shouldve checked middle pair on the flop. Simply bc at that point you dont know what anyone else has, including the all in player. He couldve pushed with QT and then youdve been dominated.

Of course you know what other people have. That's the point of paying attention on the pre-flop betting. If you can't judge someone's hand (this late in the tourney) with relative certainty by the end of the 2nd round of betting, you're doing it wrong.

The whole purpose of checking is to have everyones hole cards have a chance to knock the all in player out. In a tourny this is always the proper play bc the common goal is to knock out whos all in, putting you and everyone else left closer to the money.

He won anyway. You're telling me with a flush or a full house that you should check just to make sure that the short stack gets knocked out? Please. If people are that unsure of their hand beating a guy who's tapped out just to make the first raise, they shouldn't be in the hand.

Youre friend is wrong by saying you should always check it down when there is an all in. Everyone, theoretically, should check until they have a made hand, two pair or better. Anything less shouldnt be bet. You may be good with your ten on the flop but what if the all in hit the queen? Then what if your bet makes whoever hit the 7 fold and he wouldve hit 2 pair on the river? He wouldve knocked out the all in but instead your bet just got the all in 5x his chips to start the hand! Bad.

You can play "what ifs" all day. The side pot isn't going to go to the short stack, he can't win anything after he's tapped anyway. If that's the rule, then no one with less than a pocket pair or a couple of face cards should even play, because they're increasing the amount of money the guy who's all-in can win.

[Canibspur]

Of course you know what other people have. That's the point of paying attention on the pre-flop betting. If you can't judge someone's hand (this late in the tourney) with relative certainty by the end of the 2nd round of betting, you're doing it wrong.



He won anyway. You're telling me with a flush or a full house that you should check just to make sure that the short stack gets knocked out? Please. If people are that unsure of their hand beating a guy who's tapped out just to make the first raise, they shouldn't be in the hand.



You can play "what ifs" all day. The side pot isn't going to go to the short stack, he can't win anything after he's tapped anyway. If that's the rule, then no one with less than a pocket pair or a couple of face cards should even play, because they're increasing the amount of money the guy who's all-in can win.

Please refer to the " r" reference in my last post.

I dont understand why youre getting so defensive? Did you not actually comprehend what i posted?
He asked a betting question and i gave my answer. Furthermore, i specifically said you should bet with a made hand. Middle pair is not a made hand with an all in. I dont know why you are acting like i said never bet with an all in in the hand. The best way to play that hand is to check down until you are strong. Pretty simple concept. Youre the type of player that thinks poker is mostly about the "moves" you do make rather than the patience in the moves you dont make. Continue losing your money. Im counting on you.