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  1. #1
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    From A Non-Libertarians FAQ

    WHAT IS LIBERTARIANISM?

    It's hard to clearly define libertarianism. "It's a dessert topping!" "No, it's a floor wax!" "Wait-- it's both!" It's a mixture of social philosophy, economic philosophy, a political party, and more. It would be unjust for me to try to characterize libertarianism too exactly: libertarians should be allowed to represent their own positions. At least two FAQs have been created by libertarians to introduce their positions. But the two major flavors are anarcho-capitalists (who want to eliminate political governments) and minarchists (who want to minimize government.) There are many more subtle flavorings, such as Austrian and Chicago economic schools, gold-bug, space cadets, Old-Right, paleo-libertarians, classical liberals, hard money, the Libertarian Party, influences from Ayn Rand, and others. An interesting survey is in chapter 36 of Marshall's "Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism", "The New Right and Anarcho-capitalism."

    This diversity of libertarian viewpoints can make it quite difficult to have a coherent discussion with them, because an argument that is valid for or against one type of libertarianism may not apply to other types. This is a cause of much argument in alt.politics.libertarian: non-libertarians may feel that they have rebutted some libertarian point, but some other flavor libertarian may feel that his "one true libertarianism" doesn't have that flaw. These sorts of arguments can go on forever because both sides think they are winning. Thus, if you want to try to reduce the crosstalk, you're going to have to specify what flavor of libertarianism or which particular point of libertarianism you are arguing against.

    Libertarians are a small group whose beliefs are unknown to and not accepted by the vast majority. They are utopian because there has never yet been a libertarian society (though one or two have come close to some libertarian ideas.) These two facts should not keep us from considering libertarian ideas seriously, however they do caution us about accepting them for practical purposes.

    ...

    STRATEGIES FOR ARGUMENT

    Many libertarian arguments are like fundamentalist arguments: they depend upon restricting your attention to a very narrow field so that you will not notice that they fail outside of that field. For example, fundamentalists like to restrict the argument to the bible. Libertarians like to restrict the argument to their notions of economics, justice, history, and rights and their misrepresentations of government and contracts. Widen the scope, and their questionable assumptions leap into view. Why should I accept that "right" as a given? Is that a fact around the world, not just in the US? Are there counter examples for that idea? Are libertarians serving their own class interest only? Is that economic argument complete, or are there other critical factors or strategies which have been omitted? When they make a historical argument, can we find current real-world counterexamples? If we adopt this libertarian policy, there will be benefits: but what will the disadvantages be? Are libertarians reinventing what we already have, only without safeguards?

    There are some common counterarguments for which libertarians have excellent rebuttals. Arguments that government is the best or only way to do something may fail: there are many examples of many government functions being performed privately. Some of them are quite surprising. Arguments based on getting any services free from government will fail: all government services cost money that comes from somewhere. Arguments that we have a free market are patently untrue: there are many ways the market is modified.

    There are a number of scientific, economic, political, and philosophical concepts which you may need to understand to debate some particular point. These include free market, public goods, externalities, tragedy of the commons, prisoner's dilemma, adverse selection, market failure, mixed economy, evolution, catastrophe theory, game theory, etc. Please feel free to suggest other concepts for this list.

    One way to bring about a large volume of argument is to cross-post to another political group with opposing ideas, such as alt.politics.radical-left. The results are quite amusing, though there is a lot more heat than light. Let's not do this more often than is necessary to keep us aware that libertarianism is not universally accepted.

    ...

    LIBERTARIAN EVANGELISTIC ARGUMENTS

    Evangelists (those trying to persuade others to adopt their beliefs) generally have extensively studied which arguments have the greatest effect on the unprepared. Usually, these arguments are brief propositions that can be memorized easily and regurgitated in large numbers. These arguments, by the process of selection, tend not to have obvious refutations, and when confronted by a refutation, the commonest tactic is to recite another argument. This eliminates the need for actual understanding of the basis of arguments, and greatly speeds the rate at which evangelists can be trained.

    1. The original intent of the founders has been perverted.
    2. The US Government ignores the plain meaning of the cons ution.
    3. The Declaration Of Independence says...
    4. Libertarians are defenders of freedom and rights.
    5. Taxation is theft.
    6. If you don't pay your taxes, men with guns will show up at your house, initiate force and put you in jail.
    7. Social Contract? I never signed no steenking social contract.
    8. The social contract is like no other because it can be "unilaterally" modified.
    9. her misc. claims denying the social contract.
    10. Why should I be coerced to leave if I don't like the social contract?
    11. Do Cubans under Castro agree to their social contract?


    (list goes on, full list and rebuttals here http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html )


    ---------------------------------------

    The more I read up on whatever "Libertarianism" is, the more it looks to me like a quasi-religion, ala 9-11 Truth movement and so forth.

    Here is another link:
    Libertarianism Makes You Stupid
    Libertarian logic is an axiomatic system that bears very little resemblance to standard deductive thought - which is in part why it's so debilitating to people. It's a little like one of those non-Euclidean geometries, internally valid results can be derived from the postulates, but they sound extremely weird when applied to the real world.
    I have several Libertarian or semi-libertarian friends, and they think I am just as silly, I suppose. They aren't too hard core into it, so I don't get the overbearing attempts to convert me, but they do make for some interesting discussions.

    I offer this as a critique and counterbalance to the constant stream of Libertarian evangelicism.

    Given the quasi-religious nature of Libertarianism, I also don't expect a civil conversation about it. Most Libertarians on the internet tend to be fanatics, and fanatics really hate it when you are skeptical of their dogma.

    Regards,
    RG the Heretic

    P.S. The next book on my reading list:
    Are Capitalism, Objectivism, And Libertarianism Religions?
    Yes!: Greenspan And Ayn Rand Debunked

  2. #2
    Scrumtrulescent
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    One could just as easily make an evangelistic case about liberalism, conservatism or any idealism. But why let that little tidbit get in the way of this piece filled with self rightousness and arrogance?

    Regards,
    CG the zealot

  3. #3
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    Libertarians in general have super-conservative fiscal beliefs (end international bankings influence on currency, downsize govt, bring the boys home), very liberal social values (legalize it, end the war on drugs, save the money instead of locking up millions of folks on minor drug charges, true race neutral views on everything) and we believethat government is the worst place to try and solve society's ills.

    With the rampant corruption that we now see, I think Libertarian values would suit the situation just fine.

    Is that so hard to define? Maybe if you dont know about the party. Which apparently you dont, since you had to result to other peoples take on such matters rather than give your own.

    And for all your effort up there in the OP, I find it laughable and completely unsuprising that you bash the party as being head-in-the-clouds and hopeless, YET YOU NEVER TOUCH ON THE ACTUAL PLATFORM.

    You have no understanding of that which you fear.

    You need to look at the reasons why you fear libertarianism, and when you can actually cite valid point/counterpoint reactions to the actual party platform (not just "Libertarians are all over the place"), then you at least you will find yourself informed. For now, you are no ignorant and fearful, which makes for one of the worst combinations poosible.

    Instead of starting with generalized, uninformed attacks on an entire political party (completely dishonorable engagement, which is your MO 24-7), Start here: http://www.lp.org/platform.

    And when you differ with these generalized stances stated by the party, instead of citing them as pie-in-the-sky aspirational fodder (which I already see coming, because thats the way you roll), take some time and research how major candidates have applied these principles to the issues. Then you can start the criticism.

    For now, you are just bashing that which you dont know.

    And I find it hilarious that the FAQ you cite () starts by saying Libertarians are hard to pin down, then follows by pinning them down. WTF?
    Last edited by Parker2112; 11-04-2010 at 01:02 PM.

  4. #4
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    And some Libertarians (not all) believe that when you are born into this world, you arent born into debt. you are born free, and you dont owe anyone anything. And when you work to acheive something, its yours unequivocally. And that any other system weakens society. And that people should give through charity and not as a result of govt coercion.

    This comes from the underlying belief that people are put on the earth to realize their potential and others shouldnt put a cap on that potential just to benefit third partys.

    I dont agree with this totally, but I think its a pretty solid argument, and I absolutely think its something that we should all reckon our own beliefs with, even if you dont agree.

    Because I guarantee the folks who founded this country wanted an enlightened society which would allow citizens to pursue their own potential to the fullest. And the place we are at is not that society, right or wrong.

    And the founders dont have to warrant a biblical reverence. We can simply reflect on the aims of our founders and try and pull our govt mechanisms closer to those altruistic goals that were set in place at our inception. Nothing fanatical about that.

  5. #5
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One could just as easily make an evangelistic case about liberalism, conservatism or any idealism. But why let that little tidbit get in the way of this piece filled with self rightousness and arrogance?

    Regards,
    CG the zealot
    Heh, feel free to make the case for those. I would genuinely be interested in reading it/them. Please do. I think it might be good for everybody to poke holes in a few dogmas.

    One of the hard parts about making those cases is reflected here, in that there are a lot of flavors of those other -isms too.

  6. #6
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    def. Irrational -- anyone who doesn't agree with a progressive

  7. #7
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Libertarians in general have super-conservative fiscal beliefs (end international bankings influence on currency, downsize govt, bring the boys home), very liberal social values (legalize it, end the war on drugs, save the money instead of locking up millions of folks on minor drug charges, true race neutral views on everything) and we believethat government is the worst place to try and solve society's ills.
    I think the closest thing to a Libertarian utopia on the planet currently is Somalia. No government taxes, no red tape on starting businesses, no nothing.

    When I get some time, I think I will flesh that out. I think I can make a fair case for drawing some parallels.

  8. #8
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    def. Irrational -- anyone who doesn't agree with a progressive
    No, irrational as in illogical.

    (edit)

    I needed something of an emotional hook to get people in. Mea Culpa. It is the limitation of the medium, that sometimes one needs to get people invested in something to get them talking. Wasn't the first time I tagged a thread le that way, won't be the last.

    What I do know of the Libertarian platform I do find irrational though, but we will get around to that soon enough.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 11-04-2010 at 01:24 PM.

  9. #9
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    And for all your effort up there in the OP, I find it laughable and completely unsuprising that you bash the party as being head-in-the-clouds and hopeless, YET YOU NEVER TOUCH ON THE ACTUAL PLATFORM.

    For now, you are just bashing that which you dont know.
    All in due time. I will admit that my current ability to recite the Libertarian party platform is limited. One of the reasons I created the thread was to learn a bit first hand.

    Why don't you play the role of educator/expert and post a few things, so I/we can learn a little?

  10. #10
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    No, irrational as in illogical.

    Like passing a bill to find out what's in it?

  11. #11
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    All in due time. I will admit that my current ability to recite the Libertarian party platform is limited. One of the reasons I created the thread was to learn a bit first hand.

    Why don't you play the role of educator/expert and post a few things, so I/we can learn a little?
    Its as simple as my first paragraph of text.

  12. #12
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    Also, instead of reading things that confirm your already-existing beliefs, why dont you try out some books from the other side?

    Otherwise you box yourself into a corner of awareness where you know everything there is to know about everything you care to know about. Which is exactly where your at.

  13. #13
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Instead of starting with generalized, uninformed attacks on an entire political party (completely dishonorable engagement, which is your MO 24-7), Start here: http://www.lp.org/platform.
    We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.
    Interesting way to start off, i.e by viewing people that disagree as a "cult".

    I said in my OP I find the philosophy to be quasi-religious. First point in support of that statement.

  14. #14
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    I think the closest thing to a Libertarian utopia on the planet currently is Somalia. No government taxes, no red tape on starting businesses, no nothing.

    When I get some time, I think I will flesh that out. I think I can make a fair case for drawing some parallels.
    Your like a ing devil RG. You twist the truth at every available turn.

    Libertarian principles rival the aims of our forefathers. Freedom to pursue life without interference. Would their aims result in current day Somalia?

    You continue to cite the contention that our country could be comparable to a third-world country under the right cir stances. Boutons has me covered on this one: RG, you are ed and un able.

  15. #15
    Scrumtrulescent
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    Heh, feel free to make the case for those. I would genuinely be interested in reading it/them. Please do. I think it might be good for everybody to poke holes in a few dogmas.

    One of the hard parts about making those cases is reflected here, in that there are a lot of flavors of those other -isms too.
    Considering your OP, I doubt your sincerity in having an actual discussion about actual libertarian concepts. No, this was just a bait thread, probably designed to snag parker. You got me too. Well done.

    I think the closest thing to a Libertarian utopia on the planet currently is Somalia. No government taxes, no red tape on starting businesses, no nothing.

    When I get some time, I think I will flesh that out. I think I can make a fair case for drawing some parallels.


    Somalia huh? Now I know you're not serious.

  16. #16
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    Interesting way to start off, i.e by viewing people that disagree as a "cult".

    I said in my OP I find the philosophy to be quasi-religious. First point in support of that statement.
    I saw this coming. Second sight again.

    And when you differ with these generalized stances stated by the party, instead of citing them as pie-in-the-sky aspirational fodder (which I already see coming, because thats the way you roll), take some time and research how major candidates have applied these principles to the issues. Then you can start the criticism.

  17. #17
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Also, instead of reading things that confirm your already-existing beliefs, why dont you try out some books from the other side?

    Otherwise you box yourself into a corner of awareness where you know everything there is to know about everything you care to know about. Which is exactly where your at.
    Feel free to suggest a le or two, but don't expect me to spend money on it.

  18. #18
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    I'm done dude. I dont have all day to circle jerk with you. You dont shoot straight, and I might get hit in the eye.

    If you lay out some specific differences or questions in the thread, I will do my best to get back to them later.

  19. #19
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Libertarianism requires a smarter general public to work. I basically feel Libertarianism has the highest ceiling of any ideology but it also is by far the most demanding.

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    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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  21. #21
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Your like a ing devil RG.
    Further proof of my theory that Libertarianism is quasi-religious.

    Between fighting the "cult" of big government, and accusing skeptics of being the "devil", I think the underlying language used is rather telling.

  22. #22
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Also, instead of reading things that confirm your already-existing beliefs, why dont you try out some books from the other side?
    Instead of reading things that confirm your already-existing beliefs, why don't you try to read the two links I posted?

  23. #23
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I saw this coming. Second sight again.
    RG, you are ed and un able.
    Your like a ing devil RG. You twist the truth at every available turn.
    I saw this coming. Second sight again.

    I also don't expect a civil conversation about it.
    I guess we are even.

  24. #24
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    It's always interesting seeing which posters piss which posters off.

  25. #25
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Considering your OP, I doubt your sincerity in having an actual discussion about actual libertarian concepts. No, this was just a bait thread, probably designed to snag parker. You got me too. Well done.



    Somalia huh? Now I know you're not serious.
    For the most part, you are correct. The thought of Parker's apoplectic spittle-flecked invective does amuse greatly.

    BUT

    I am completely genuine about discussing Libertarianism's strengths and weaknesses. I find it overall to be an idea that sounds good on paper, but is ill-suited to reality, much like communism. There is much I find appealing about it.

    As I noted previously, I do occasionally put out emotional "hooks" in OPs to "get people in the door", but am willing to have grown up conversations about it.

    If you can assume that I am not a "devil", I will assume you are a rational human being, and we can have a decent conversation. Deal?

    As for Somalia, it is far from a Libertarian ideal, having no functioning court system. I will readily admit that the comparison is fairly flawed. It is still closer than any other country to the Libertarian ideal than any other I can think of.

    Offer up something closer if you want. What country comes closest to the Libertarian ideal in your opinion?

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