http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/na...JIivyDfB4bC5gw
The College Dropout Boom
By DAVID LEONHARDT
The New York Times
Published: May 24, 2005
CHILHOWIE, Va. - One of the biggest decisions Andy Blevins has ever made, and one of the few he now regrets, never seemed like much of a decision at all. It just felt like the natural thing to do.
In the summer of 1995, he was moving boxes of soup cans, paper towels and dog food across the floor of a supermarket warehouse, one of the biggest buildings here in southwest Virginia. The heat was brutal. The job had sounded impossible when he arrived fresh off his first year of college, looking to make some summer money, still a skinny teenager with sandy blond hair and a narrow, freckled face.
But hard work done well was something he understood, even if he was the first college boy in his family. Soon he was making bonuses on top of his $6.75 an hour, more money than either of his parents made. His girlfriend was around, and so were his hometown buddies. Andy acted more outgoing with them, more relaxed. People in Chilhowie noticed that.
It was just about the perfect summer. So the thought crossed his mind: maybe it did not have to end. Maybe he would take a break from college and keep working. He had been getting C's and D's, and college never felt like home, anyway.
"I enjoyed working hard, getting the job done, getting a paycheck," Mr. Blevins recalled. "I just knew I didn't want to quit."
So he quit college instead, and with that, Andy Blevins joined one of the largest and fastest-growing groups of young adults in America. He became a college dropout, though nongraduate may be the more precise term.
Many people like him plan to return to get their degrees, even if few actually do. Almost one in three Americans in their mid-20's now fall into this group, up from one in five in the late 1960's, when the Census Bureau began keeping such data. Most come from poor and working-class families.
The phenomenon has been largely overlooked in the glare of positive news about the country's gains in education. Going to college has become the norm throughout most of the United States, even in many places where college was once considered an exotic destination - places like Chilhowie (pronounced chill-HOW-ee), an Appalachian hamlet with a simple brick downtown. At elite universities, classrooms are filled with women, blacks, Jews and Latinos, groups largely excluded two generations ago. The American system of higher learning seems to have become a great equalizer.
In fact, though, colleges have come to reinforce many of the advantages of birth. On campuses that enroll poorer students, graduation rates are often low. And at ins utions where nearly everyone graduates - small colleges like Colgate, major state ins utions like the University of Colorado and elite private universities like Stanford - more students today come from the top of the nation's income ladder than they did two decades ago.
Only 41 percent of low-income students entering a four-year college managed to graduate within five years, the Department of Education found in a study last year, but 66 percent of high-income students did. That gap had grown over recent years. "We need to recognize that the most serious domestic problem in the United States today is the widening gap between the children of the rich and the children of the poor," Lawrence H. Summers, the president of Harvard, said last year when announcing that Harvard would give full scholarships to all its lowest-income students. "And education is the most powerful weapon we have to address that problem."
There is certainly much to celebrate about higher education today. Many more students from all classes are getting four-year degrees and reaping their benefits. But those broad gains mask the fact that poor and working-class students have nevertheless been falling behind; for them, not having a degree remains the norm.
That loss of ground is all the more significant because a college education matters much more now than it once did. A bachelor's degree, not a year or two of courses, tends to determine a person's place in today's globalized, computerized economy. College graduates have received steady pay increases over the past two decades, while the pay of everyone else has risen little more than the rate of inflation.
As a result, despite one of the great education explosions in modern history, economic mobility - moving from one income group to another over the course of a lifetime - has stopped rising, researchers say. Some recent studies suggest that it has declined over the last generation. [Click here for more information on income mobility.]
Put another way, children seem to be following the paths of their parents more than they once did. Grades and test scores, rather than privilege, determine success today, but that success is largely being passed down from one generation to the next. A nation that believes that everyone should have a fair shake finds itself with a kind of inherited meritocracy.
In this system, the students at the best colleges may be diverse - male and female and of various colors, religions and hometowns - but they tend to share an upper-middle-class upbringing. An old joke that Harvard's idea of diversity is putting a rich kid from California in the same room as a rich kid from New York is truer today than ever; Harvard has more students from California than it did in years past and just as big a share of upper-income students.
Students like these remain in college because they can hardly imagine doing otherwise. Their parents, understanding the importance of a bachelor's degree, spent hours reading to them, researching school districts and making it clear to them that they simply must graduate from college.
Andy Blevins says that he too knows the importance of a degree, but that he did not while growing up, and not even in his year at Radford University, 66 miles up the Interstate from Chilhowie. Ten years after trading college for the warehouse, Mr. Blevins, 29, spends his days at the same supermarket company. He has worked his way up to produce buyer, earning $35,000 a year with health benefits and a 401(k) plan. He is on a path typical for someone who attended college without getting a four-year degree. Men in their early 40's in this category made an average of $42,000 in 2000. Those with a four-year degree made $65,000.
Still boyish-looking but no longer rail thin, Mr. Blevins says he has many reasons to be happy. He lives with his wife, Karla, and their year-old son, Lucas, in a small blue-and-yellow house at the end of a cul-de-sac in the middle of a stunningly picturesque Appalachian valley. He plays golf with some of the same friends who made him want to stay around Chilhowie.
But he does think about what might have been, about what he could be doing if he had the degree. As it is, he always feels as if he is on thin ice. Were he to lose his job, he says, everything could slip away with it. What kind of job could a guy without a college degree get? One night, while talking to his wife about his life, he used the word "trapped."
"Looking back, I wish I had gotten that degree," Mr. Blevins said in his soft-spoken lilt. "Four years seemed like a thousand years then. But I wish I would have just put in my four years."
The Barriers
Why so many low-income students fall from the college ranks is a question without a simple answer. Many high schools do a poor job of preparing teenagers for college. Many of the colleges where lower-income students tend to enroll have limited resources and offer a narrow range of majors, leaving some students disenchanted and unwilling to continue.
Then there is the cost. Tuition bills scare some students from even applying and leave others with years of debt. To Mr. Blevins, like many other students of limited means, every week of going to classes seemed like another week of losing money - money that might have been made at a job.
"The system makes a false promise to students," said John T. Casteen III, the president of the University of Virginia, himself the son of a Virginia shipyard worker.
Colleges, Mr. Casteen said, present themselves as meritocracies in which academic ability and hard work are always rewarded. In fact, he said, many working-class students face obstacles they cannot overcome on their own.
For much of his 15 years as Virginia's president, Mr. Casteen has focused on raising money and expanding the university, the most prestigious in the state. In the meantime, students with backgrounds like his have become ever scarcer on campus. The university's genteel nickname, the Cavaliers, and its aristocratic sword-crossed coat of arms seem appropriate today. No flagship state university has a smaller proportion of low-income students than Virginia. Just 8 percent of undergraduates last year came from families in the bottom half of the income distribution, down from 11 percent a decade ago.
That change sneaked up on him, Mr. Casteen said, and he has spent a good part of the last year trying to prevent it from becoming part of his legacy. Starting with next fall's freshman class, the university will charge no tuition and require no loans for students whose parents make less than twice the poverty level, or about $37,700 a year for a family of four. The university has also increased financial aid to middle-income students.
To Mr. Casteen, these are steps to remove what he describes as "artificial barriers" to a college education placed in the way of otherwise deserving students. Doing so "is a fundamental obligation of a free culture," he said.
But the deterrents to a degree can also be homegrown. Many low-income teenagers know few people who have made it through college. A majority of the nongraduates are young men, and some come from towns where the factory work ethic, to get working as soon as possible, remains strong, even if the factories themselves are vanishing. Whatever the reasons, college just does not feel normal.
"You get there and you start to struggle," said Leanna Blevins, Andy's older sister, who did get a bachelor's degree and then went on to earn a Ph.D at Virginia studying the college experiences of poor students. "And at home your parents are trying to be supportive and say, 'Well, if you're not happy, if it's not right for you, come back home. It's O.K.' And they think they're doing the right thing. But they don't know that maybe what the student needs is to hear them say, 'Stick it out just one semester. You can do it. Just stay there. Come home on the weekend, but stick it out.' "
Today, Ms. Blevins, pe e and high-energy, is helping to start a new college a few hours' drive from Chilhowie for low-income students. Her brother said he had daydreamed about attending it and had talked to her about how he might return to college.
For her part, Ms. Blevins says, she has daydreamed about having a life that would seem as natural as her brother's, a life in which she would not feel like an outsider in her hometown. Once, when a high-school teacher asked students to list their goals for the next decade, Ms. Blevins wrote, "having a college degree" and "not being married."
"I think my family probably thinks I'm liberal," Ms. Blevins, who is now married, said with a laugh, "that I've just been educated too much and I'm gettin' above my raisin'."
Her brother said that he just wanted more control over his life, not a new one. At a time when many people complain of scattered lives, Mr. Blevins can stand in one spot - his church parking lot, next to a graveyard - and take in much of his world. "That's my parents' house," he said one day, pointing to a sliver of roof visible over a hill. "That's my uncle's trailer. My grandfather is buried here. I'll probably be buried here."
Taking Class Into Account
Opening up colleges to new kinds of students has generally meant one thing over the last generation: affirmative action. Intended to right the wrongs of years of exclusion, the programs have swelled the number of women, blacks and Latinos on campuses. But affirmative action was never supposed to address broad economic inequities, just the ones that stem from specific kinds of discrimination.
That is now beginning to change. Like Virginia, a handful of other colleges are not only increasing financial aid but also promising to give weight to economic class in granting admissions. They say they want to make an effort to admit more low-income students, just as they now do for minorities and children of alumni.
"The great colleges and universities were designed to provide for mobility, to seek out talent," said Anthony W. Marx, president of Amherst College. "If we are blind to the educational disadvantages associated with need, we will simply replicate these disadvantages while appearing to make decisions based on merit."
With several populous states having already banned race-based preferences and the United States Supreme Court suggesting that it may outlaw such programs in a couple of decades, the future of affirmative action may well revolve around economics. Polls consistently show that programs based on class backgrounds have wider support than those based on race.
The explosion in the number of nongraduates has also begun to get the attention of policy makers. This year, New York became one of a small group of states to tie college financing more closely to graduation rates, rewarding colleges more for moving students along than for simply admitting them. Nowhere is the stratification of education more vivid than here in Virginia, where Thomas Jefferson once tried, and failed, to set up the nation's first public high schools. At a modest high school in the Tidewater city of Portsmouth, not far from Mr. Casteen's boyhood home, a guidance office wall filled with college pennants does not include one from rarefied Virginia. The colleges whose pennants are up - Old Dominion University and others that seem in the realm of the possible - have far lower graduation rates.
Across the country, the upper middle class so dominates elite universities that high-income students, on average, actually get slightly more financial aid from colleges than low-income students do. These elite colleges are so expensive that even many high-income students receive large grants. In the early 1990's, by contrast, poorer students got 50 percent more aid on average than the wealthier ones, according to the College Board, the organization that runs the SAT entrance exams.
At the other end of the spectrum are community colleges, the two-year ins utions that are intended to be feeders for four-year colleges. In nearly every one are tales of academic success against tremendous odds: a battered wife or a combat veteran or a laid-off worker on the way to a better life. But over all, community colleges tend to be places where dreams are put on hold.
Most people who enroll say they plan to get a four-year degree eventually; few actually do. Full-time jobs, commutes and children or parents who need care often get in the way. One recent national survey found that about 75 percent of students enrolling in community colleges said they hoped to transfer to a four-year ins ution. But only 17 percent of those who had entered in the mid-1990's made the switch within five years, according to a separate study. The rest were out working or still studying toward the two-year degree.
"We here in Virginia do a good job of getting them in," said Glenn Dubois, chancellor of the Virginia Community College System and himself a community college graduate. "We have to get better in getting them out."
'I Wear a Tie Every Day'
College degree or not, Mr. Blevins has the kind of life that many Americans say they aspire to. He fills it with family, friends, church and a five-handicap golf game. He does not sit in traffic commuting to an office park. He does not talk wistfully of a relocated brother or best friend he sees only twice a year. He does not worry about who will care for his son while he works and his wife attends community college to become a physical therapist. His grandparents down the street watch Lucas, just as they took care of Andy and his two sisters when they were children. When Mr. Blevins comes home from work, it is his turn to play with Lucas, tossing him into the air and rolling around on the floor with him and a stuffed elephant.
Mr. Blevins also sings in a quartet called the Gospel Gentlemen. One member is his brother-in-law; another lives on Mr. Blevins's street. In the long white van the group owns, they wend their way along mountain roads on their way to singing dates at local church functions, sometimes harmonizing, sometimes ribbing one another or talking about where to buy golf equipment.
Inside the churches, the other singers often talk to the audience between songs, about God or a grandmother or what a song means to them. Mr. Blevins rarely does, but his shyness fades once he is back in the van with his friends.
At the warehouse, he is usually the first to arrive, around 6:30 in the morning. The grandson of a coal miner, he takes pride, he says, in having moved up to become a supermarket buyer. He decides which bananas, grapes, onions and potatoes the company will sell and makes sure that there are always enough. Most people with his job have graduated from college.
"I'm pretty fortunate to not have a degree but have a job where I wear a tie every day," he said.
He worries about how long it will last, though, mindful of what happened to his father, Dwight, a decade ago. A high school graduate, Dwight Blevins was laid off from his own warehouse job and ended up with another one that paid less and offered a smaller pension.
"A lot of places, they're not looking that you're trained in something," Andy Blevins said one evening, sitting on his back porch. "They just want you to have a degree."
Figuring out how to get one is the core quandary facing the nation's college nongraduates. Many seem to want one. In a New York Times poll, 43 percent of them called it essential to success, while 42 percent of college graduates and 32 percent of high-school dropouts did. This in itself is a change from the days when "college boy" was an insult in many working-class neighborhoods. But once students take a break - the phrase that many use instead of drop out - the ideal can quickly give way to reality. Family and work can make a return to school seem even harder than finishing it in the first place.
After dropping out of Radford, Andy Blevins enrolled part-time in a community college, trying to juggle work and studies. He lasted a year. From time to time in the decade since, he has thought about giving it another try. But then he has wondered if that would be crazy. He works every third Saturday, and his phone rings on Sundays when there is a problem with the supply of potatoes or apples. "It never ends," he said. "There's a never a lull."
To spend more time with Lucas, Mr. Blevins has already cut back on his singing. If he took night classes, he said, when would he ever see his little boy? Anyway, he said, it would take years to get a degree part-time. To him, it is a tug of war between living in the present and sacrificing for the future.
Few Breaks for the Needy
The college admissions system often seems ruthlessly meritocratic. Yes, children of alumni still have an advantage. But many other pillars of the old system - the polite rejections of women or blacks, the spots reserved for graduates of Choate and Exeter - have crumbled.
This was the meritocracy Mr. Casteen described when he greeted the parents of freshman in a University of Virginia lecture hall late last summer. Hailing from all 50 states and 52 foreign countries, the students were more intelligent and better prepared than he and his classmates had been, he told the parents in his quiet, deep voice. The class included 17 students with a perfect SAT score.
If anything, children of privilege think that the system has moved so far from its old-boy history that they are now at a disadvantage when they apply, because colleges are trying to diversify their student rolls. To get into a good college, the sons and daughters of the upper middle class often talk of needing a higher SAT score than, say, an applicant who grew up on a farm, in a ghetto or in a factory town. Some state legislators from Northern Virginia's affluent suburbs have argued that this is a form of geographic discrimination and have quixotically proposed bills to outlaw it.
But the conventional wisdom is not quite right. The elite colleges have not been giving much of a break to the low-income students who apply. When William G. Bowen, a former president of Princeton, looked at admissions records recently, he found that if test scores were equal a low-income student had no better chance than a high-income one of getting into a group of 19 colleges, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Williams and Virginia. Athletes, legacy applicants and minority students all got in with lower scores on average. Poorer students did not.
The findings befuddled many administrators, who insist that admissions officers have tried to give poorer applicants a leg up. To emphasize the point, Virginia announced this spring that it was changing its admissions policy from "need blind" - a term long used to assure applicants that they would not be punished for seeking financial aid - to "need conscious." Administrators at Amherst and Harvard have also recently said that they would redouble their efforts to take into account the obstacles students have overcome.
"The same score reflects more ability when you come from a less fortunate background," Mr. Summers, the president of Harvard, said. "You haven't had a chance to take the test-prep course. You went to a school that didn't do as good a job coaching you for the test. You came from a home without the same opportunities for learning."
But it is probably not a coincidence that elite colleges have not yet turned this sentiment into action. Admitting large numbers of low-income students could bring clear complications. Too many in a freshman class would probably lower the college's average SAT score, thereby damaging its ranking by U.S. News & World Report, a leading arbiter of academic prestige. Some colleges, like Emory University in Atlanta, have climbed fast in the rankings over precisely the same period in which their percentage of low-income students has tumbled. The math is simple: when a college goes looking for applicants with high SAT scores, it is far more likely to find them among well-off teenagers.
More spots for low-income applicants might also mean fewer for the children of alumni, who make up the fund-raising base for universities. More generous financial aid policies will probably lead to higher tuition for those students who can afford the list price. Higher tuition, lower ranking, tougher admission requirements: they do not make for an easy marketing pitch to alumni clubs around the country. But Mr. Casteen and his colleagues are going ahead, saying the pendulum has swung too far in one direction.
That was the mission of John Blackburn, Virginia's easy-going admissions dean, when he rented a car and took to the road recently. Mr. Blackburn thought of the trip as a reprise of the drives Mr. Casteen took 25 years earlier, when he was the admissions dean, traveling to churches and community centers to persuade black parents that the university was finally interested in their children.
One Monday night, Mr. Blackburn came to Big Stone Gap, in a mostly poor corner of the state not far from Andy Blevins's town. A community college there was holding a college fair, and Mr. Blackburn set up a table in a hallway, draping it with the University of Virginia's blue and orange flag.
As students came by, Mr. Blackburn would explain Virginia's new admissions and financial aid policies. But he soon realized that the Virginia name might have been scaring off the very people his pitch was intended for. Most of the students who did approach the table showed little interest in the financial aid and expressed little need for it. One man walked up to Mr. Blackburn and introduced his son as an aspiring doctor. The father was an ophthalmologist. Other doctors came by, too. So did some lawyers.
"You can't just raise the UVa flag," Mr. Blackburn said, packing up his materials at the end of the night, "and expect a lot of low-income kids to come out."
When the applications started arriving in his office this spring, there seemed to be no increase in those from low-income students. So Mr. Blackburn extended the deadline two weeks for everybody, and his colleagues also helped some applicants with the maze of financial aid forms. Of 3,100 incoming freshmen, it now seems that about 180 will qualify for the new financial aid program, up from 130 who would have done so last year. It is not a huge number, but Virginia administrators call it a start.
A Big Decision
On a still-dark February morning, with the winter's heaviest snowfall on the ground, Andy Blevins scraped off his Jeep and began his daily drive to the supermarket warehouse. As he passed the home of Mike Nash, his neighbor and fellow gospel singer, he noticed that the car was still in the driveway. For Mr. Nash, a school counselor and the only college graduate in the singing group, this was a snow day.
Mr. Blevins later sat down with his calendar and counted to 280: the number of days he had worked last year. Two hundred and eighty days - six days a week most of the time - without ever really knowing what the future would hold.
"I just realized I'm going to have to do something about this," he said, "because it's never going to end."
In the weeks afterward, his daydreaming about college and his conversations about it with his sister Leanna turned into serious research. He requested his transcripts from Radford and from Virginia Highlands Community College and figured out that he had about a year's worth of credits. He also talked to Leanna about how he could become an elementary school teacher. He always felt that he could relate to children, he said. The job would take up 180 days, not 280. Teachers do not usually get laid off or lose their pensions or have to take a big pay cut to find new work.
So the decision was made. On May 31, Andy Blevins says, he will return to Virginia Highlands, taking classes at night; the Gospel Gentlemen are no longer booking performances. After a year, he plans to take classes by video and on the Web that are offered at the community college but run by Old Dominion, a Norfolk, Va., university with a big group of working-class students.
"I don't like classes, but I've gotten so motivated to go back to school," Mr. Blevins said. "I don't want to, but, then again, I do."
He thinks he can get his bachelor's degree in three years. If he gets it at all, he will have defied the odds.
So US universities, both public and private, are seeing an increasing proportion of their student body come from more affluent classes. This, at a time when the average income level and income growth of a college graduate continues to exceed that of high school grads rather markedly.
But I guess everything's fine, since this is America and, um, dammit, everything's fine in America.
The biggest economic issue I see is that college seems less affordable. In previous generations, ins utions like the GI Bill allowed a lot of people from the lower classes easy access to higher education.
Today, tuition continues to skyrocket, and even though there is financial aid, it often comes in the form of loans, and prospective students stare down the idea of a debt that far exceeds the largest salary their parents ever have earned.
A lot of universities are focusing upon raising their prestige level at the expense of affordability. They ramp up tuition and fees to pour money into facilities and research. This raises the quality of an education, but starts to limit access only to the affluent.
Economic issues are not the only reason for this growing schism. There is also a cultural disconnect between the classes. Affluent families in general place the highest priority on getting their children educated, even pushing them forward to advanced degrees in law and medicine. Lower-class families more often take a laissez-faire at ude towards their kids' schooling, or even discourage the choice of education over immediate work. Young people from isolated poor areas have to withstand a great deal of culture shock while away at university, and often find it more comfortable to quit and start earning what seems like a nice wage, at least before they have to start supporting a family with it.
In today's economy, advanced skills simply are a must. But it seems to me that the upper bound for the highly educated segment of the work force is 30% or so. I don't know what to do about the rest of the folks -- it does seem that increasingly they are just being left out of the economy, left out of the political process, and left out of society as the relatively affluent know it.
The U.S. is not the only country grappling with this. Globalization means that the unskilled work force in affluent countries has to compete with billions of people in third-world countries for whom a dollar or two a day represents unimagined riches. But the alternative has been shown to be even worse (see Depression, Great.)
So basically the children of the poor...er, "working class" are left to fend for themselves with a public high school diploma that isn't worth jack.
It's even worse than you say. Increasingly, only the affluent have access to decent public education.
More and more underfunded urban and rural public schools are unaccredited because their quality is so bad.
Yep.
But it's ok because the NEA and the Demos says it's ok. Well, other than a few problems and of course those can be laid at the feet of the evil greedy Republicans who want to starve our children and destroy our cherished ins utions.
As for the college access problem, well everyone I know goes to college...
Actually, that's not even the biggest issue. Yeah, it seems like a mountain of debt to pay - and it is - but I'm not adverse to paying for my education. However, the loans arent growing, while the tuition is. You can't go to school the way you could even 10 years ago at a decent univers y on just Stafford Loans.
They need to grow FA at the same rate that tuition is growing, or devise a system to control the growth of tuition.
It's hard for to advocate government involvement to this extent, but I think it's the type of situation where all of society benefits when you have a larger number of people educated.
Yeah, see UTSA. And it doesn't nessecarily raise the quality of education, it just brings in more students.A lot of universities are focusing upon raising their prestige level at the expense of affordability. They ramp up tuition and fees to pour money into facilities and research. This raises the quality of an education, but starts to limit access only to the affluent.
UTSA has a grand vision of what kind of school it wants to be, and Romo is doing his best to take it there. Unfortunetly, this doesn't begin with changes to the academics and making improvements to the faculty. No it begins with talk of adding a football team, stadium, and adding more recreation facilities while cutting back on the number of department heads and classes.
It's higher education for the MTV generation.
I call bull on this assesment. This may be true for a very small percentage overall, but I think the vast majority of people that come from families in lower classes place a large importance on education.Economic issues are not the only reason for this growing schism. There is also a cultural disconnect between the classes. Affluent families in general place the highest priority on getting their children educated, even pushing them forward to advanced degrees in law and medicine. Lower-class families more often take a laissez-faire at ude towards their kids' schooling, or even discourage the choice of education over immediate work. Young people from isolated poor areas have to withstand a great deal of culture shock while away at university, and often find it more comfortable to quit and start earning what seems like a nice wage, at least before they have to start supporting a family with it.
I would be interested to see anything you have that backs up your POV, however. I could be wrong and be basing this more on personal feelings.
I think the alternative would have been a slower and more controlled transition. There would have been smarter ways to handle this for the American people, but the American people don't controll the lobbys that stand to make billions of dollars on every NAFTA and CAFTA they can push through congress.In today's economy, advanced skills simply are a must. But it seems to me that the upper bound for the highly educated segment of the work force is 30% or so. I don't know what to do about the rest of the folks -- it does seem that increasingly they are just being left out of the economy, left out of the political process, and left out of society as the relatively affluent know it.
The U.S. is not the only country grappling with this. Globalization means that the unskilled work force in affluent countries has to compete with billions of people in third-world countries for whom a dollar or two a day represents unimagined riches. But the alternative has been shown to be even worse (see Depression, Great.)
the gi bill is still around. right now, it pays $1,004 per month if you take 12 hours. and if you have the army college fund as well, the rate is like $1,500 or so per month.
also, you still qualify for grants and unsubsidized loans.
a university education is there for the taking. a student can start at nw vista, sac and the other community colleges. they are extremely affordable right now. then transfer to finish their bachelors.
no excuses, just do it. i know too many people from poor family's that have chosen to do the extra work and get an education to think that just because you are poor you can't make it. i was talking to a friend of mine the other day...her father crossed illegally and now she just graduated from college. from nothing to college degree. who wants to work and who doesn't. no excuses...you run your own life.
I disagree. I don't have data either, but I would think the high dropout rates in areas where poverty is more prevalent is indicative of the value placed on education. It's possible that this could be levelled somewhat by improving the quality of the schools in those areas, but a lot of it comes from culture and upbringing.I call bull on this assesment. This may be true for a very small percentage overall, but I think the vast majority of people that come from families in lower classes place a large importance on education.
I'm just going by personal experience, but it seems like cultures have flipped in the past twenty years. it used to be whites who prioritized education and Hispanics who valued working right away, but now at least where I am it's the other way around. The Latinos are upwardly mobile, and the rednecks are rejecting higher education as if doing so is some kind of rebellion against change.
Good point. It's intriguing. I may look up some information on it once I get home.
I disagree. A lot of the "rednecks" have jobs in the computer industry where a college degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on if you don't have experience. We are seeing a trend where experience is more important. Also, a lot of young people are continuing their education because they don't want to/have work, and the instutionalized system of education is all they know. I know plenty who match that description. , not to single women out, but how many women do you know that have master's degrees and don't use them?
Education is only one component of success. Ambition, hard work, dilligence, people skills, the ability to form relationships and financial discipline all play a larger role in whether you are successful.
Bull . I believe that young people living in the cycle of poverty get little real support even if its just being mentored or tutoring, and they have the added huge disadvantage of living with parents who are sometimes hooked on alchol or drugs, received very little higher education, and somehow failed to instill a hard-work ethic and can-do at ude into their children. Improving schools and giving kids an alternative to broken homes is exactly what we should be doing.I disagree. I don't have data either, but I would think the high dropout rates in areas where poverty is more prevalent is indicative of the value placed on education. It's possible that this could be levelled somewhat by improving the quality of the schools in those areas, but a lot of it comes from culture and upbringing.
I'm trying to figure out how your position is that different from mine.
So where is the bull ?
"reading impaired dan"
Some interesting reading. I know there are a lot of problems and that tuition is rising much faster than financial aid and that public education is crappy, especially if you're poor. But I also know that the opportunities are still there. There's an aspect that a lot of people ignore, and that's this: nobody's telling the poor kids what they can actually achieve, why it's even important, and where they can get help. Listen, I grew up in a poor family in W.V. No way could my parents afford to send me to college. And God knows that education in W.V. is . But I wanted to learn, and I did. And any kid who will take that on themselves can too, but somebody has to tell them they can and encourage them and be involved. Too often, the parents can't or won't. That's why I think a big piece that's missing is good counseling in schools, to give kids a picture of what is available to them. I went on and got a good education and a better life, but I was lucky. Nobody told me there was help, I just decided I was going to college come or high water, and I found out about the resources after I got there. Most of my peers are still living in a trailer park and working at Chevron and Walmart. People really need to help their kids understand that they can do better and that help is available. It does no good if those who need it most don't know about it.
I have been paying my own way and it hasn't been cheap, even at a Community College level. When you are taking science courses at over $100 a book, it can get expensive quick. I haven't qualified for financial aid, which blows. You have to be one broke ass MOFO to recieve it. Individuals such as myself "who make too much" end up getting screwed. They expect me to quick working all together to recieve such benefits.
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