Nine Pictures of the Extreme Income/Wealth Gap

[LnGrrrR]

Note: There are some countries with a flat tax out there, but most have adopted them within the last ten years. There's not many long-standing countries with flat taxes that I know of.

[vy65]

Some redistribution of wealth is necessary for a large functioning society. Feel free to provide evidence of a flat tax in a modern society.

What, you're backing down from the "large" amount now? How about you give a rough percentage?

I was just answering a question of yours. I don't see the relevance of a flat tax here. And I told you that I don't have numbers. But your sidestepping the issue - how often do you redistribute your wealth to the poor?

Intelligence is not knowledge. Knowledge is learning facts/figures/etc. Intelligence determines how much knowledge you can retain/learn/etc.

Do you deny that the other factors play a role in the success of an individual?

That's my (and ironically your) point. Intelligence, along with several other factors you identified, determine how much one can make. Those are immutable - or at least you haven't told me how all of them are not. The factors that determine the amount of wealth you ultimately earn are about as unchangeable as one's race. So why is one discrimination ok, but the other not?

You could argue that unequal levels of taxation help keep a society running (as I do), or you could choose to argue from a moral standpoint (ie. utilitarianism.) But yes, different moralities are certainly up for debate.

Honestly, I haven't been arguing from a moral standpoint, but from a "real-world" standpoint.

A good way to point out the difference in "real world" vs "moral" arguments would be looking up the term "moral luck" and how society deals with it.

I get it. Redistributing wealth prevents social revolt. But, that also leaves open the possibility that the rich might seek other ways, besides giving money back to the poor, to maintain the status quo.

[vy65]

Boutons was arguing how the common citizen has almost no sway when it comes to politics. The "rich" person has much more influence, to an "unfair" degree one might say.

Not really counter to my argument. I never said it was bad for the powerful to try to maintain their power. That's the way the world is.

[baseline bum]

You sound like someone who realizes that s/he is unable to attain power or wealth, and so leaches off of others who have under the guise of helping the "future of this nation."

You really are pathetic with your standard wingnut characterizations. You sound like someone who has never worked a day in his life.

[LnGrrrR]

I was just answering a question of yours. I don't see the relevance of a flat tax here. And I told you that I don't have numbers. But your sidestepping the issue - how often do you redistribute your wealth to the poor?

I donate to charity annually. At what percentage of my income, I don't know offhand.

That's my (and ironically your) point. Intelligence, along with several other factors you identified, determine how much one can make. Those are immutable - or at least you haven't told me how all of them are not. The factors that determine the amount of wealth you ultimately earn are about as unchangeable as one's race. So why is one discrimination ok, but the other not?

Knowledge is not immutable though. (Nearly) everyone can learn more about something or another.

There's all sorts of other factors that play in, including will, desire, etc etc.

Unless you want to play the whole "everything is determined by nature/nurture/genetics therefore there is no free will" card, there IS some amount of control that goes into getting rich. There's also some amount of luck.

I get it. Redistributing wealth prevents social revolt. But, that also leaves open the possibility that the rich might seek other ways, besides giving money back to the poor, to maintain the status quo.

Yes, and that is a valid argument that many conservatives use. (ie. rich people should not be taxed to redistribute, as studies say that when they keep more money they donate more as well/do other stuff, etc etc).

[LnGrrrR]

Not really counter to my argument. I never said it was bad for the powerful to try to maintain their power. That's the way the world is.

So why is it bad for the common citizenry to try and take away the rich person's power?

[ElNono]

Don't forget the extra 'tax' rich people have to pay in order to flex their power muscle in the form of lobbying...

God forbid they would only have the same influence as your average citizens...

[Sec24Row7]

Honestly, do you do standup?

Did I say something funny to you? What exactly do you find incorrect about that statement?

[vy65]

You really are pathetic with your standard wingnut characterizations. You sound like someone who has never worked a day in his life.

lol ok buddy

[vy65]

So why is it bad for the common citizenry to try and take away the rich person's power?

I don't think it's good or bad. It is what it is.

[RandomGuy]

(edit)

Hotlinking to graph not allowed. never mind.

[RandomGuy]

I'm not going to disagree that there is a huge concentration of wealth. However, I will disagree that those wealthy people could ever pay off the national debt. Every single American, rich and poor, could put every dollar we have in a bucket and we still would not have enough. [emphasis mine-RG]

nevertheless, I'm not so worried about what others have, as I am more worried about what I have and the opportunities to grow what I have.

In addition, wealth is unequally distributed with the wealthiest 25% of US households owning 87% ($54.2 trillion, in 2009)[2] of the wealth in the United States.[3][4]

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 16 Feb 2011 at 07:26:21 PM GMT is:
($14.1Tr)

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/



Care to try that again?


(end copy paste, begin edit to add in links from wikipedia entry to see what the claims were based on)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_..._United_States

1.^ a b c d e f "US Federal Reserve on wealth distribution in the United States". http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/o...on.2001.10.pdf. Retrieved 2006-07-12.
2.^ a b "Americans' net worth up for 3rd straight quarter". U.S. Federal Reserve. 2010-03-11. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100311/...i/us_net_worth. Retrieved 2010-03-11. [dead link]
3.^ a b c d e f Growing Wealth, Inequality, and Housing in the United States. Zhu Xiao Di. Feb. 2007. Joint Center for Housing Studies.
4.^ Wealth Inequality: Data and Models. Marc Cagetti and Mariacristina De Nardi. Aug. 2005. Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

[RandomGuy]

What does that 10% owe the remaining 90%

As I have said before, if one benefits more from any given system, one incurs an ethical obligation, IMO.

[baseline bum]

As I have said before, if one benefits more from any given system, one incurs an ethical obligation, IMO.

Shut up leech!

[DarrinS]

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's (goods)

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think it's good or bad. It is what it is.

Do you think it's "fair"?

[LnGrrrR]

Did I say something funny to you? What exactly do you find incorrect about that statement?

You said that rich can't defend themselves if the gov't tries to take more of their money, which is laughable. With money comes power, and the rich have more than enough power to influence tax legislation in this country.

[LnGrrrR]

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's (goods)

A classic throwaway from DarrinS.

Tell me DarrinS, how is taxation different from forced hing?

[Trainwreck2100]

Don't forget the extra 'tax' rich people have to pay in order to flex their power muscle in the form of lobbying...

God forbid they would only have the same influence as your average citizens...

its not a tax its an investment, that guarantees a return

[DarkReign]

That's the way the world works. You sound like someone who realizes that s/he is unable to attain power or wealth, and so leaches off of others who have under the guise of helping the "future of this nation."

I honestly believe there is no "right" answer to the wealth gap between the few and the very many, but you dont know -all about Baseline and its statements like these that prove you came into this argument with preconceived ideas about those who feel strongly opposed to your views on it.

BB is probably the smartest mother er on this board and I guarantee his income is greater than most to prove it.

[baseline bum]

I honestly believe there is no "right" answer to the wealth gap between the few and the very many, but you dont know -all about Baseline and its statements like these that prove you came into this argument with preconceived ideas about those who feel strongly opposed to your views on it.

BB is probably the smartest mother er on this board and I guarantee his income is greater than most to prove it.

LOL, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I know FWD and Slomo are way smarter than I am, as are plenty of others on this board. Something about the anonymity of the web just turns everything into flame wars, and I'm certainly guilty of that many times.

[Winehole23]

Do you think it's "fair"?

vy65's phrase "it is what it is" ostensibly parries the somewhat more philosophical question of equitability.

OTOH, one can acknowledge the legitimacy of the status quo without submitting to the inequities so meekly and quietly. ing is allowed, even appropriate.

[Sec24Row7]

You said that rich can't defend themselves if the gov't tries to take more of their money, which is laughable. With money comes power, and the rich have more than enough power to influence tax legislation in this country.

No I said they can't defend themselves if the government INSISTS on taking more of their money. They can certainly work on the government not insisting.

[vy65]

vy65's phrase "it is what it is" ostensibly parries the somewhat more philosophical question of equitability.

OTOH, one can acknowledge the legitimacy of the status quo without submitting to the inequities so meekly and quietly. ing is allowed, even appropriate.

True. My point was that said inequality was natural or inevitable. Inequality, hierarchy, power, etc... are givens. To some, that means fight to alter those dynamics because thier not "fair."

To me, I don't see the point in making that moral claim. It is what it is.

[vy65]

I honestly believe there is no "right" answer to the wealth gap between the few and the very many, but you dont know -all about Baseline and its statements like these that prove you came into this argument with preconceived ideas about those who feel strongly opposed to your views on it.

BB is probably the smartest mother er on this board and I guarantee his income is greater than most to prove it.

lol ok buddy. Just don't choke on his too much.