Ronaldo v. Messi: The Missing Rivalry

[DAF86]

I did see Diego in his prime, and I can tell you that he was better than Messi.
Lio scores more goals, but it has a lot to do with the system Barcelona uses around him.
Diego´s and Lionel´s dribbling ability are about the same. (check Diego at 24...he was unstoppable just like Messi on 1 vs 1 situations)
Diego had better court vision, but I guess that came with age/experience.
For free kicks, Diego had a glove in his left foot.

The main difference is leadership. Diego was a leader. Messi is not. Xavi is Barca´s leader.

Diego had Messi´s talent + Xavi´s leadership.

Diego played for ing Napoli!!! and battled against the strongest clubs in Italy (Milan, Juve) winning a couple of local leagues.
Imagine the Charlotte Bobcats winning the NBA le...

Personal problems aside,As a soccer player, Diego >> Messi

Your word against Varskys I guess although I seriously doubt there's the need for two of these > .

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

Diego played in a stacked Barca team and didn't do much there. Those are cir stances, football isn't math. Maybe if he would have gone to Juventus instead of Napoli he wouldn't have won anything. Also you're trying to make it seem like if he played alongside a bunch of amateurs in Napoli. He had a great team behind there.

[resistanze]

Your word against Varskys I guess although I seriously doubt there's the need for two of these > .

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

Diego played in a stacked Barca team and didn't do much there. Those are cir stances, football isn't math. Maybe if he would have gone to Juventus instead of Napoli he wouldn't have won anything. Also you're trying to make it seem like if he played alongside a bunch of amateurs in Napoli. He had a great team behind there.

Well I'm sure most of the world would rank Maradona over Messi so I don't know why e Varskys' word is gospel. Pippen said LeBron may be the greatest of all-time, doesn't really mean .

And like it or not, World Cup matters, especially in the legendary way Diego carried his team. If that shouldn't count for something then we should discount other team accomplishments like Champions League.The fact that it happens once every 4 years makes it even more impressive, imo.

Diego also suffered from injuries in his Barca stint, and you could just as easily make the opposite argument that Messi hasn't done anything without a stacked team. Which would be unfair, but those are the facts.

[DAF86]

Well I'm sure most of the world would rank Maradona over Messi so I don't know why e Varskys' word is gospel. Pippen said LeBron may be the greatest of all-time, doesn't really mean .

And many of those probably have seen Maradona only on highlights. Where did I say Varsky's word is gospel?

And like it or not, World Cup matters, especially in the legendary way Diego carried his team. If that shouldn't count for something then we should discount other team accomplishments like Champions League.The fact that it happens once every 4 years makes it even more impressive, imo.

What Diego did in 86 was impressive, probably the greatest performance ever by an individual on a single tournament, and of course the WC matters but it's not the begin and end of it all, that's what I'm trying to say. Specially when it isn't even the top compe ion in terms of talent.

Diego also suffered from injuries in his Barca stint, and you could just as easily make the opposite argument that Messi hasn't done anything without a stacked team. Which would be unfair, but those are the facts.

Well, that's exactly my point. It's unfair to compare individuals saying "guy A won in team B, guy B wouldn't have done that". You don't know.

[resistanze]

And many of those probably have seen Maradona only on highlights. Where did I say Varsky's word is gospel?

Maradona isn't that old. A significant number of the current world's population saw Maradona play - it was in '86 when he dominated the WC and was leading Napoli to les. You obviously put a lot into what Varsky said and that's fine, but one man's opinion is just another opinion.

What Diego did in 86 was impressive, probably the greatest performance ever by an individual on a single tournament, and of course the WC matters but it's not the begin and end of it all, that's what I'm trying to say. Specially when it isn't even the top compe ion in terms of talent.

The WC is a big part. It's not as if players just suddenly get up and go play in the WC for a month. It takes years of qualifying and training. Winning on the biggest stage in soccer elevates players into greatness. Obviously Messi will still be an all-time great even if he doesn't win, but people will look beyond individual skills of a player when discussing their greatness.

I don't know what you mean by it isn't the top compe ion in terms of talent. All the best players in the world play in the WC, their distribution is obviously different but they're all there. I mean it's not as if BATE, Shanktar and APOEL are a measuring stick for talent in the CL. Additionally you've said yourself the current Barca team is possibly the greatest in history, so it's not as if the CL talent poses an additional obstacle for Messi and Barca, even if CL is somewhat better in terms of talent.

Well, that's exactly my point. It's unfair to compare individuals saying "guy A won in team B, guy B wouldn't have done that". You don't know.

That's fine, I never use ifs and but for arugments for players. But you implied Maradona is overrated, but what Maradona accomplished in his entire career is more impressive than what Messi has done so far. Obviously that's just my opinion.

[Muser]

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.

[ogait]

Not too long ago I heard my favorite sport's journalist Juan Pablo Varsky say that "Messi was the best Maradona everyday", I haven't had the chance to see Maradona play on his prime but if Varsky (a known Maradona fan) says that I bealive him.

People tend to overrate former players and underrate current ones in the all-time great debate. I haven't seen a better player in my lifetime than Messi and I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tle of greatest footballer of all time.

[sonic21]

Messi could be the best of all time, but we'll have to wait a few more years until we seriously start talking about this.
Barça being so awesome people will always wait to see what he can do with his NT or when xavi, iniesta... will be gone to rank him.

Pele is the best though.

[ogait]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger compe ion.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

[diego]

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tle of greatest footballer of all time.

DAF is an uncontrollable messi homer. how else could someone make a statement like this

I seriously doubt there could have been a player that did what he does with the consistency that he does.

Please DAF, explain why before it was so unlikely for that to have happened?


As for Argentines thinking its a two man race, you clearly havent been to Argentina lately. Most do not reconcile barcelona messi with NT messi, generally speaking he is not rated as highly by Argentines as he is by foreigners. For most Argentines there is no question that Diego was better, and for a lot of old timers Di Stefano and even Moreno were better than either (much like many brazilians prefer Garrincha or even Ronaldo / Romario to Pele; IMO if it werent for injury Ronaldo would definitely be in these discussions). So you see there is always room for debate.

As for Argentines being egocentric (we are, just like most people anywhere), the fact that is that FIFA, IFFHS and other organizations (based in europe I might add) all consider Di Stefano and Maradona to be top5 players all time, which is one more player than any other country. Argentina hasn't had the WC success of other countries, but we have always produced top notch talent since the inception of professional football. Messi is well on his way to joining them, but still has to play at least another 5 good years. Messi has a lot riding on 2014, by 2018 he'll be past his prime to be the difference maker he is now.

[diego]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

[ALVAREZ6]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

I don't think he means it's worth more, but that you can find stronger overall teams in the CL compared to WC, which I agree with, but that's partially because Barcelona is currently the best team ever assembled, and ManU, Real Madrid, etc. are very strong clubs filled with international stars that play together all year around vs. a few months in preparation for the WC. There's no question Barcelona beat any current national team, they're Spain + Messi + better defense.


But the fact is Messi plays on the best team, and that's why it's easier for him to perform so well on such a consistent basis. DAF, you say Diego played on stacked Barca teams...for how long? And were they as stacked as this Barca? Was Diego at that stage as good as he was while in Napoli?? I think Napoli were his best years, obviously, and if that Diego played with this Barca, I'm sure he would be equally consistent. They are awfully similar players to begin with.

If Messi somehow wins a WC or 2 by the time he retires, he may go down as the best ever, IMO. And I hope that happens because Diego is a total bag, but you still have to have him ranked over Messi. It's not like there's a huge drop down from Diego to Messi, but he still has to be higher.

[DAF86]

The unbiased Argentinian opinion.
I just love how Argentinians pretend its a 2 man race between Messi and Maradona for the tle of greatest footballer of all time.

The only reason I'm arguing Messi vs Maradona is 'cause lefty brought it up.

[DAF86]

oh and DAF, no way CL is worth more than WC. you are letting your homerism go out of control

Who said the CL i worth more than the WC? I'm saying the CL has more talent than the WC.

Barca s on Spain, Madrid s on Holland, ManU s on England, etc.

Besides there's more working time resulting on better understanding on the different teams.

Every reasonable person realizes this.

[DAF86]

DAF is an uncontrollable messi homer. how else could someone make a statement like this

And you're a Maradona homer. What's the difference?

Please DAF, explain why before it was so unlikely for that to have happened?

'Cause I have never seen it done by anyone before Messi came along. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, I'm jut saying that I doubt it. Instead of asking me this, tell me how old are you? Have you seen Maradona play? Did he do that consistently?

[DAF86]

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.

Messi could be the best of all time, but we'll have to wait a few more years until we seriously start talking about this.
Barça being so awesome people will always wait to see what he can do with his NT or when xavi, iniesta... will be gone to rank him.

Pele is the best though.

How do you know Pele was the best? Have you seen him play? Or do you go by stats alone?

The 1.000 goals thing is completely unproven and you have to remember that back in the days games had an average of more than 5 goals each.

Then is the three WCs thing. Which first and foremost is a team accomplishment and second not everybody knows what's the deal with Pele' three WCs.

In the first one he won he was 17 years old, wasn't the best player on the team, in the second one during Pele's prime he got injured and practically didn't play in that tournament yet Brazil having a stacked team back then won anyways and in the third one he was past his prime and again wasn't the best player on his own team.

[DAF86]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.

[DAF86]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger compe ion.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

[resistanze]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.

So what should be judge Messi's career by? How well he dribbles? Shoots? Passes?

Does this mean if Messi spent his entire career at Getafe, you'd rank him the same on the all-time list? With no La Liga les? No Champions League les?

If Michael Jordan was drafted by the Golden State Warriors, would he be considered the GOAT? How about if Magic was drafted by the Kansas City Kings?

Individual legacies are intertwined with team accomplishments, there's no way around that, but its understood that great players drove the team's accomplishments. There's obviously more than just winning Cups (rings), but they'll always play a factor.

[DAF86]

If you're great sooner or later you play on contenders, either beacuse the team is built around you or because you're bought by a bigger team. On international play you don't have that chance.

[ElNono]

I watched both in their primes and Diego was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi. Like not close.

I'm talking the player department here, not the personal side.

Diego was probably less of a striker Messi is, but he made everyone play. You could just play 8 defenders, 1 goalie, 1 striker and Diego and win (see Mexico '86, Napoli, even Italy '90).

Maradona also had eyes in the back of his head. His passing was simply unmatched. And his stroke on the ball on freekicks or longballs was just amazing. His control of the ball was also a sight to see. You could throw bricks at him, he'll always return a round ball.

Varski was either too young or has little memory, IMO.

[ElNono]

I would also add that Diego played at a time in soccer where the game was played 20x rougher than it is now.

[ElNono]

tbqh, when you see the passes in this video and the misses point blank, you can tell the kind of scrubs he played with.

[ElNono]

Free kick ability isn't something you lose with age and I remember that Maradona wasn't particularly elite there when I watched him.

Maradona had better court vision? Did he constantly give 4 or 5 "goal passes" per game like Messi does?

From an Argentina guy to another, I can definitely tell you didn't see Diego.

Just

[ElNono]

i thought kaka or even ribery/robben had a chance, but injuries has derailed these guys careers...

ozil and di maria...if they played on one man teams and continue with the current performances in big tournaments, then they could make a case for themselves this decade...but too bad these guys play on stacked teams and get overshadowed due to not touches and tv time on sportscenter play of the night....

Di Maria stock is falling as quickly as his speed disappears... he has awful control of the ball. The guy is pure speed.

[ElNono]

And just to wrap up, the World Cup is *IT*. It has little to do with talent. It has everything to do with national pride, and the fact that it's somewhat of a rarity (every 4 years). Every player only get to play two at their peak, sometimes only one. If you dominate there, you have set your imprint in history.