Ronaldo v. Messi: The Missing Rivalry

[ogait]

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

Hum, talk about minority when you are practically the only guy who thinks Messi is the best player of all time at age 24.

I on the other hand can't really score that much on originality since pretty much any list of all time players will rank both Zidane and Ronaldo ahead of Messi, which really isn't surprising considering they are both retired World Cup winners, multiple football player of the year awards winners etc, and Messi still has a long playing time ahead of him.

Not that I really care much about those lists but since you brought up the subject, you're picks are certainly much more unconventional than mines.

[Jodelo]

Xavi is the best player in the world, not Messi!

He is not even the leader of Barcelona, he is nothing without Xavi and Iniesta and now even Cesc...

[DAF86]

Hum, talk about minority when you are practically the only guy who thinks Messi is the best player of all time at age 24.

I on the other hand can't really score that much on originality since pretty much any list of all time players will rank both Zidane and Ronaldo ahead of Messi, which really isn't surprising considering they are both retired World Cup winners, multiple football player of the year awards winners etc, and Messi still has a long playing time ahead of him.

Not that I really care much about those lists but since you brought up the subject, you're picks are certainly much more unconventional than mines.

First: When have I said that Messi is the best player ever?

Second: Most people that saw all of those players (Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo) play would say that Messi is the better of the lot regardless of les.

[DAF86]

He really, really didn't play 'forward', unless you're saying guys like Xavi or Riquelme are forwards. He played the old classic Argentina #10, who sat between the midfielders and the (normally lone) striker. In Mexico '86, the lone guy up top was Valdano. In Napoli, Careca. In Italy '90 Caniggia.

Teams don't really play that way as much anymore, because that classic #10 is an almost extinct player. People complain that Messi has to come back down too much when he plays in the NT to get the ball, but that's exactly where Diego would pick it up. Messi is just a different player with a different role in Barça.

The old Argentina #10 usually plays as the guy between the miedfielders and two forwards, Burruchaga was that man in '86 and '90 and in Napoli Maradona played as one of the forwards in a 4-4-2.

[DAF86]

Humberto Maschio: "I played with Distefano and Pele, I saw Maradona play, Messi is better than all of them".

http://lv12.com.ar/VerNotaCompleta.py?IDNOTA=97779

[ElNono]

The old Argentina #10 usually plays as the guy between the miedfielders and two forwards, Burruchaga was that man in '86 and '90 and in Napoli Maradona played as one of the forwards in a 4-4-2.

But Burruchaga was never a #10. He always played right side attacking-midfielder, and sometimes striker. The only full-time striker we had was Valdano. Bilardo actually used Pasculli, which was another striker in a 4-4-2 against Uruguay. But after that, he dropped him and put in Enrique to play a 3-5-2, which was more of a 3-5-1-1, since Diego was basically allowed to roam everywhere. Go take a look at the games. Diego always got the ball pretty much exactly at midfield.

Bilardo always gets a lot of , but that team was very compact. Everybody went up and down (except Valdano) in a block. Argentina hasn't played like that in a long time, and it shows.

[ElNono]

Humberto Maschio: "I played with Distefano and Pele, I saw Maradona play, Messi is better than all of them".

http://lv12.com.ar/VerNotaCompleta.py?IDNOTA=97779

I didn't see Pele or Di Stefano. But I disagree about Diego.

[DAF86]

But Burruchaga was never a #10. He always played right side attacking-midfielder, and sometimes striker. The only full-time striker we had was Valdano. Bilardo actually used Pasculli, which was another striker in a 4-4-2 against Uruguay. But after that, he dropped him and put in Enrique to play a 3-5-2, which was more of a 3-5-1-1, since Diego was basically allowed to roam everywhere. Go take a look at the games. Diego always got the ball pretty much exactly at midfield.

Bilardo always gets a lot of , but that team was very compact. Everybody went up and down (except Valdano) in a block. Argentina hasn't played like that in a long time, and it shows.

I don't know if Burruchaga was never a true #10 but that's the pos ion he played during those WC's, well actually he played the "enganche" postion 'cause originally the number ten position in argentina is the left miedfielder.

I've seen a lot of that WC, Maradona usually chilled and rested up there while Argentina was defending and then he had the liberty to move anywhere.

[ElNono]

I don't know if Burruchaga was never a true #10 but that's the pos ion he played during those WC's, well actually he played the "enganche" postion 'cause originally the number ten position in argentina is the left miedfielder.

I've seen a lot of that WC, Maradona usually chilled and rested up there while Argentina was defending and then he had the liberty to move anywhere.[/QUOTE]

Well, he certainly wasn't a defender if that's your point.

Here's a good writeup on the game against England that shows what I'm talking about, tactically wise:

The Tactical View: England vs. Argentina

Notice the graph. It was basically the introduction of the 3-5-2 at the international level. Obviously, when you have a player like Maradona, it's a lot easier.

[ogait]

First: When have I said that Messi is the best player ever?

Haven't you been arguing that the entire thread?

Second: Most people that saw all of those players (Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo) play would say that Messi is the better of the lot regardless of les.

Judging by the quotes you made in this thread, by most people you mean: Argentinian reporters, Argentinian former players, Argentinians in general, and also current coach and current team mate. All of the highest impartiality I must add.

[scott]

I think the fact that people even debate a 24 year old Messi as GOAT is pretty damn impressive.

[cheguevara]

I think the fact that people even debate a 24 year old Messi as GOAT is pretty damn impressive.

only an idiot would debate this. Messi can't even beat Bolivia in Buenos Aires.

Until he wins at national team level he is just a good club player lucky to play in the best club in the world.

yeah, he's probably best player in the world, but GOAT???

[ALVAREZ6]

joshda got, that guy who's you want in your mouth so badly just allowed his Portuguese side lose to Denmark today, and has been far more successful than Messi has with his country .

[DAF86]

Haven't you been arguing that the entire thread?

No.

Judging by the quotes you made in this thread, by most people you mean: Argentinian reporters, Argentinian former players, Argentinians in general, and also current coach and current team mate. All of the highest impartiality I must add.

Cruyff, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Salas, Francescoli, Zaragoza's coach 2 years ago (not know his name) and many others non-Argies/current teammates have said that Messi is the best player they have seen (or tied in first with Maradona, Pele).

Let's make a poll right here, people of spurstalk if you have to chose among Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi to have on your team who would you pick? Be honest please.

[ogait]

No.

So you have only argued that Messi is better than Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc ... but amazingly that does not equal the best player ever.

Anyway I made a pretty fair acesement that it is too soon to put Messi ahead of those players, even though I don't think it's far fetched that he will eventually.

If I really wanted to argue against Messi I would say that he plays in the same club since he was 11, that he shines in a stacked team full of European and World Champions, which btw was already winning all kinds of trophy's when Ronaldinho was their best player, and that Messi has never done anything significant outside of Barca.

But I'll just go with it's too soon.

[DAF86]

So you have only argued that Messi is better than Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc ... but amazingly that does not equal the best player ever.

I have only argued that Messi is better than Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Zidane.

Anyway I made a pretty fair acesement that it is too soon to put Messi ahead of those players, even though I don't think it's far fetched that he will eventually.

IMO With what Messi has showed 'till now it's enough to say that he is better than all those players, I never saw somebody play at a higher level than Messi and I doubt there could be in the future somebody that plays at a higher level, including Messi.

f I really wanted to argue against Messi I would say that he plays in the same club since he was 11, that he shines in a stacked team full of European and World Champions, which btw was already winning all kinds of trophy's when Ronaldinho was their best player, and that Messi has never done anything significant outside of Barca.

But I'll just go with it's too soon.

So what? Not Ronaldinho nor any of those European and world champions ever played at the level Messi is playing right now.

[cheguevara]

Messi just lost to Venezuela in a game that matters, the WC Eliminatories.

and some mother ers call him the GOAT

[velik_m]

Let's make a poll right here, people of spurstalk if you have to chose among Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi to have on your team who would you pick? Be honest please.

Zidane. Messi might be good, but he hasn't headbutted any Italians yet.

[hater]

In a World Cup I also pick Zidane.

In club play probably messi cause he will sell tickets.

[hater]

BTW, in a world cup I also pick Ronaldo or even Ronaldinho over Messi.

The 2 brazilians would fluorish in bad or good teams. Messi has too many requirements.

[ElNono]

It just really depends on the other 10 guys you put around them... Zidane was awesome, but he played on pretty stacked teams too (Lizarazu, Desailly, Thuram, Henry, Trezeguet). Brazil always had more or less stacked teams too.

[in2deep]

gimme Johan Cruiff over anybody not name Pele or Maradona

[Jodelo]

Zidane is the all-time best!

[sonic21]

Zidane is the all-time best!

he's not even the all time best french player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

zidanes best was during his juventus days which overlapped to wc and euro...

didnt think he won any important trophies at real madrid besides la liga...