Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[bobbyjoe]

You are now getting into a better point of discussion.

Profiling isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither is discrimination warranted for the situation. We all discriminate on a daily basis. It usually has nothing to do with race however.

Wouldn't a wise person in society not want to appear as one who gets profiled?

Absolutely. Why do you think he doesn't?

I don't thnk profiling is necessarily a bad thing. I definitely don't think it's a heinous or criminal act and I agree that we all do it on a daily basis. I know I do, even though I try not too and try to be more open-minded.

I disagree that it usually has nothing to do with race. I think race is a very common reason for profiling. So is gender. So is age.

However, I think profiling can definitely go too far and I think this case is a perfect example. At the end of the day, Zimmerman was absolutely wrong that Martin was up to no good and look what happened. A life was lost that didn't have to be. Two parents are absolutely devastated and their lives are irrevocably altered.

Can you expand on where you were going with the wise person in society not wanting to appear as one who gets profiled?

[bobbyjoe]

And we are to believe this liar..... why?

I would imagine the police questioning was recorded and if the prosecutor was lying, Zimmerman has nothing to worry about at the trial on this aspect f the case.

Not sure how much of the trial snippets you saw, but at one point this prosecutor grilled Zimmerman about why Zimmerman didn't express remorse for taking a life during the interrogation as opposed to waiting until the bail hearing.

Zimmerman answered that he indeed had and then the prosecutor asked (in an aggressive, louder tone)... "So since you said this, it would be present on the recorded questioning you encountered at the police station?"

It seems odd to ask that question unless you have evidence to the contrary... My guess is this will be brought up at trial to raise doubts as to Zimmerman's credibility. We shall see.

I'm shocked Z's lawyer put him on the stand today.

[mavs>spurs]

my honest gut feeling is that the guy is innocent, but it's a really tough call. seeing that picture today confirmed why the police initially seemed to do nothing, they had the facts we didn't. i think that this whole trial is just to appease all the people crying racism.

[bobbyjoe]

my honest gut feeling is that the guy is innocent, but it's a really tough call. seeing that picture today confirmed why the police initially seemed to do nothing, they had the facts we didn't. i think that this whole trial is just to appease all the people crying racism.

The picture was dramatic for sure. I know people say head wounds bleed profusely, but that was a LOT of blood. It will be interesting to see the medical report and whether s ches were required.

My gut is telling me that Trayvon started the fight, but that Zimmerman eventually gained the upper hand and shot him afterwards in a rage. Anyone who has been in a fight knows that you aren't thinking rationally at all during the fight. He may be a good guy, but he clearly made a mistake and actions have to have consequences in our society.

However, it wasn't the police who wanted to let the case go. It was the State Attorney. The lead investigator didn't believe Zimmerman's story and wanted to file Manslaughter charges. THe DA declined.

Prosecutors like high conviction rates and like winning as it feeds their ego's. If they believe a person is guilty, but feel like they will have a hard time proving it in court they often will decline to prosecute the case. And self-defense is often difficult to disprove in a murder case because the victim isn't around to tell his/her side of the story.

[mavs>spurs]

i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

[mavs>spurs]

I've been ed with by the police for no good reason. I'll bet other whites here have as well.

sure have

[bobbyjoe]

i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

The police report has Trayvon weighing 150 lbs at the time of his death. He had a scrawny build, so if he had played football he must have been something like a WR and those guys aren't exactly or often "tough". The media has also shown pictures of Trayvon a few days before his death and it's clear the guy was really skinny.

Zimmerman's weight is estimated at 180-190 lbs. He was at one time a bouncer and you typically don't get hired as a bouncer unless you can handle yourself well in physical conflicts. So the size angle seems to be a slight edge for Zimmerman or a draw. Trayvon was definitely not MUCH bigger than Zimmerman. Taller yes, bigger no.

[mavs>spurs]

ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.

[bobbyjoe]

ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-...re-Death-Photo

Here are several pictures of Trayvon 9 days before his death. Does he look like a big guy to you?

[mavs>spurs]

this wasn't the worlds tiniest little kid..i have every reason to believe he could beat a short, fat mexican's ass and cause him to bleed like the picture. again, prove that zimmmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? i've neverrrrr heard even one piece of evidence to support this, not by the witnesses not by anything. sounds like just your own idea to me, but in order to get a conviction you need evidence. zimmerman walks.

[TheSkeptic]

Did anyone catch today that the prosecutor indicated Zimmerman had told the police during their hours of questioning him that Trayvon Martin was trying to suffocate him before he "scooted away" and shot Trayvon at close range?

It's stuff like this that makes me think that Zimmerman probably is guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly Zimmerman is lying about some of what happened that night and that includes details like this one. I also find it really su ious that his account of events specifically satisfies the legal requirements for self-defense.

In spite of all this his own attorney is invoking SYG (likely to justify the pursuit) and playing semantics rather than attacking the evidence.

Meanwhile Zimmerman's exaggerated his injuries, lied about being the one calling for help, and can't even put together a coherent timeline. The fact that he's hiding that kind of information leads me to believe that he shot the kid for no good reason and is covering his bases.

I'm shocked Z's lawyer put him on the stand today.

I think it was to make sure the apology was televised so that he could have some public sympathy when they select a jury.

The picture was dramatic for sure. I know people say head wounds bleed profusely, but that was a LOT of blood. It will be interesting to see the medical report and whether s ches were required.

The state investigator already said that Zimmerman's head wasn't being pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk.

My gut is telling me that Trayvon started the fight, but that Zimmerman eventually gained the upper hand and shot him afterwards in a rage. Anyone who has been in a fight knows that you aren't thinking rationally at all during the fight. He may be a good guy, but he clearly made a mistake and actions have to have consequences in our society.

See I could see this except for the girlfriend's testimony. She said Trayvon said "Why are you following me?", Zimmerman answered with "What are you doing here?" and that one shoved the other or something because Trayvon's headset fell.

I'm thinking that Zimmerman was maybe tired of the fact that the cops weren't taking his calls seriously and that he decided that he was going to detain the kid until the police arrived. Trayvon was scared of Zimmerman so I don't think he would've followed him back to his car and blindsided him. I just don't.

My guess is that Zimmerman grabbed the kid's arm or something to detain him and that's when the fight started. Trayvon could very well have thrown a punch at that point. Zimmerman loses his balance and falls hitting his head on the sidewalk. Maybe the kid gets on top and punches him in the face a couple of times.

Furious that the suspect is resisting, Zimmerman then gets the upperhand and shoots.

Since stalking and harassment is illegal anyway, it doesn't matter to me who threw the first punch. But if Zimmerman was the one who grabbed the kid physically first then he wouldn't even be able to count on SYG to save himself. Most likely that's the detail that pushed O'Mara into pursuing SYG as a defense.

That would fit into the reasons why Zimmerman has been purposely attempting to paint himself as the absolute victim here in my opinion. Most likely he did something he shouldn't have and that final detail would probably put the final nail in his coffin.

i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

6'3 150 pounds and 5'8 to 5'10 150 pounds are two completely different body types. Forget about the fact that Zimmerman clearly outweighed Trayvon by at least 20 pound if not more.

[bobbyjoe]

this wasn't the worlds tiniest little kid..i have every reason to believe he could beat a short, fat mexican's ass and cause him to bleed like the picture. again, prove that zimmmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? i've neverrrrr heard even one piece of evidence to support this, not by the witnesses not by anything. sounds like just your own idea to me, but in order to get a conviction you need evidence. zimmerman walks.

I clearly said it was my gut instinct.

The way I formulated it was by listening to the 911 call. I find it extremely difficult to believe that Zimmerman was yelling for help for 45 seconds wheras it is very logical and rational to visualize Trayvon yelling if Zimmerman was in control and Trayvon knew Zimmerman was about to shoot him.

If he was in such fear for his life (the calls on the 911 call were clearly of someone in agonizing fear) why wait so long to fire? And if Martin is in such great control and pounding the crap out of him in a one sided mismatch, how exactly does he extricate his gun, unholster it and fire it? Does Martin just sit idly while he sees Z reach for his gun?! If there was a struggle for the gun, there has to be Martin's DNA on the gun.

All this happens in the span of ONE SECOND? In the 911 call, there is less than one second between the last yell for help and the gunshot. Why would you be yelling for help less than one second before making the conscious, voluntary decision to shoot someone in the chest?! Zimmerman's story just doesn't jive up sequentially with the cries for help on the 911 call. It didn't pass the lead investigator's smell test, it didn't pass Angela Corey's smell test and it doesn't pass mine.

[Wild Cobra]

The police report has Trayvon weighing 150 lbs at the time of his death. He had a scrawny build, so if he had played football he must have been something like a WR and those guys aren't exactly or often "tough". The media has also shown pictures of Trayvon a few days before his death and it's clear the guy was really skinny.

Zimmerman's weight is estimated at 180-190 lbs. He was at one time a bouncer and you typically don't get hired as a bouncer unless you can handle yourself well in physical conflicts. So the size angle seems to be a slight edge for Zimmerman or a draw. Trayvon was definitely not MUCH bigger than Zimmerman. Taller yes, bigger no.

ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.

Well, I pointed out before that when I was Martin's age, I was a little thinner than him, and 6' tall. I was 150 lbs.

The police report was just an estimate of his weight, based on how he looked. They police did not measure and weigh him as the scene. No way he was only 150. He was probably about 170. The coroners report of his weight wasn't released to the public yet, to my knowledge.

As for Zimmerman being a bouncer... If he was... unless you know the job requirements at the specific establishment he worked at, being a bouncer doesn't mean . These guys usually wand people and sit and look official. They seldom ever have to take action, the police arrive from a call far more often than not when incidents start. Been to many bars over the years with bouncers present. Only seen them have to take physical action once.

[bobbyjoe]

It's stuff like this that makes me think that Zimmerman probably is guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly Zimmerman is lying about some of what happened that night and that includes details like this one. I also find it really su ious that his account of events specifically satisfies the legal requirements for self-defense.

In spite of all this his own attorney is invoking SYG (likely to justify the pursuit) and playing semantics rather than attacking the evidence.

Meanwhile Zimmerman's exaggerated his injuries, lied about being the one calling for help, and can't even put together a coherent timeline. The fact that he's hiding that kind of information leads me to believe that he shot the kid for no good reason and is covering his bases.



I think it was to make sure the apology was televised so that he could have some public sympathy when they select a jury.



The state investigator already said that Zimmerman's head wasn't being pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk.



See I could see this except for the girlfriend's testimony. She said Trayvon said "Why are you following me?", Zimmerman answered with "What are you doing here?" and that one shoved the other or something because Trayvon's headset fell.

I'm thinking that Zimmerman was maybe tired of the fact that the cops weren't taking his calls seriously and that he decided that he was going to detain the kid until the police arrived. Trayvon was scared of Zimmerman so I don't think he would've followed him back to his car and blindsided him. I just don't.

My guess is that Zimmerman grabbed the kid's arm or something to detain him and that's when the fight started. Trayvon could very well have thrown a punch at that point. Zimmerman loses his balance and falls hitting his head on the sidewalk. Maybe the kid gets on top and punches him in the face a couple of times.

Furious that the suspect is resisting, Zimmerman then gets the upperhand and shoots.

Since stalking and harassment is illegal anyway, it doesn't matter to me who threw the first punch. But if Zimmerman was the one who grabbed the kid physically first then he wouldn't even be able to count on SYG to save himself. Most likely that's the detail that pushed O'Mara into pursuing SYG as a defense.

That would fit into the reasons why Zimmerman has been purposely attempting to paint himself as the absolute victim here in my opinion. Most likely he did something he shouldn't have and that final detail would probably put the final nail in his coffin.



6'3 150 pounds and 5'8 to 5'10 150 pounds are two completely different body types. Forget about the fact that Zimmerman clearly outweighed Trayvon by at least 20 pound if not more.

The girlfriend's testimony from what I understand doesn't suggest Zimmerman started the physical conflict.

Yes, the headset fell, but that doesn't prove who shoved whom. I don't believe that just because Zimmerman followed Trayvon he is the instigator.

Zimmerman shoving Martin and starting a fight with someone who he thought was su ious doesn't make sense to me. But a 17 year old black teenager being severely pissed off that a stranger was following him makes perfect sense to me. Since Martin was suspended from school, he also may not have been in a very positive frame of mind, especially with regards to authority (Zimmerman had pseudo-authority as a neighborhood watchman).

I could see your theory being right about the detainment, but I find it easier to believe that Zimmerman politely asked Martin to stick around until the police officers showed up and Martin refusing to and being insulted by the suggestion and punching him. In other words, not a forced detainment. Again, just my gut instinct.

I definitely don't think Martin is wholly innocent in this matter. The blood didn't get on Zimmerman's head just like that. But I don't buy Zimmerman was put in such a horrific situation by Martin that he had a right to kill based on the evidence we've seen so far.

I completely agree that the contradictions in his statements arouse su ion. It's clear that's what the prosecutors and lead investigator thought.

This case has manslaughter written all over it in my mind. The Murder 2 charge makes no sense given what we know...

[TheSkeptic]

The girlfriend's testimony from what I understand doesn't suggest Zimmerman started the physical conflict.

Yes, the headset fell, but that doesn't prove who shoved whom. I don't believe that just because Zimmerman followed Trayvon he is the instigator.

Zimmerman shoving Martin and starting a fight with someone who he thought was su ious doesn't make sense to me. But a 17 year old black teenager being severely pissed off that a stranger was following him makes perfect sense to me. Since Martin was suspended from school, he also may not have been in a very positive frame of mind, especially with regards to authority (Zimmerman had pseudo-authority as a neighborhood watchman).

I could see your theory being right about the detainment, but I find it easier to believe that Zimmerman politely asked Martin to stick around until the police officers showed up and Martin refusing to and being insulted by the suggestion and punching him. In other words, not a forced detainment. Again, just my gut instinct.

I definitely don't think Martin is wholly innocent in this matter. The blood didn't get on Zimmerman's head just like that. But I don't buy Zimmerman was put in such a horrific situation by Martin that he had a right to kill based on the evidence we've seen so far.

I completely agree that the contradictions in his statements arouse su ion. It's clear that's what the prosecutors and lead investigator thought.

This case has manslaughter written all over it in my mind. The Murder 2 charge makes no sense given what we know...

I take it you're not black then?

I definitely agree that the girlfriend's testimony doesn't prove Zimmerman threw the first punch. He might've touched him first though and that's what would likely bury him even with jurors who are more inclined to believe his story.

Really, I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind why else Zimmerman would go on to lie and exaggerate if he hadn't done anything wrong. If he had gone up to Trayvon and said: "Excuse me, I couldn't help but notice you walking around here and you seemed a little bit lost. There's been a rash of break-ins taking place in this area and I was just checking to see if you're okay." and then Trayvon just started kicking his teeth in he wouldn't be lying about so much of what happened. You know?

The girlfriend did say that Zimmerman answered Trayvon's question with the words "What are you doing here?" before the headset fell. That's kind of why I'm thinking that Zimmerman maybe grabbed the kid's arm or something before Trayvon punched him.

I've noticed that a lot of the Hispanic people I've met tend to be more physical in general with respect to touch and all that so from that perspective Zimmerman might not have been fully aware of the effect his actions were having. The kid reacts badly and things continue to escalate from there.

Of course I also don't really care about the details of the fight because I think Trayvon had every reason to feel threatened and since he only had his fists and he wasn't some kind of expert martial artist I just don't think Zimmerman's use of deadly force was justified here.

That said, I think the right charge was probably manslaughter. Unless there's some unreleased evidence (apparently it's been sealed) that we don't know about Murder 2 seems like reaching to me.

[Jacob1983]

The prosecution seems like it will have a much tougher job than the defense. The prosecution has to prove 100 percent that Zimmerman did it and is 100 percent guilty. All the defense has to do is create doubt and with that bogus Stand Your Ground law, it looks like it might be easy to do so.

Zimmerman is probably a prick and a piece of crap but none of us were there so we honestly don't know what happened. I just think it's funny how so many people are automatically wanting to create over racism when they don't even have hardly any of the facts. It's like people want Zimmerman to be a psycho racist so they can throw stones at him and about racism.
Why is it automatically assumed that when a white person does anything wrong to a black person or a person that is a minority that it's automatically a hate crime or has something to do with racism? What if people just do bad because they're evil or just bad?

[bobbyjoe]

I take it you're not black then?

I definitely agree that the girlfriend's testimony doesn't prove Zimmerman threw the first punch. He might've touched him first though and that's what would likely bury him even with jurors who are more inclined to believe his story.

Really, I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind why else Zimmerman would go on to lie and exaggerate if he hadn't done anything wrong. If he had gone up to Trayvon and said: "Excuse me, I couldn't help but notice you walking around here and you seemed a little bit lost. There's been a rash of break-ins taking place in this area and I was just checking to see if you're okay." and then Trayvon just started kicking his teeth in he wouldn't be lying about so much of what happened. You know?

The girlfriend did say that Zimmerman answered Trayvon's question with the words "What are you doing here?" before the headset fell. That's kind of why I'm thinking that Zimmerman maybe grabbed the kid's arm or something before Trayvon punched him.

I've noticed that a lot of the Hispanic people I've met tend to be more physical in general with respect to touch and all that so from that perspective Zimmerman might not have been fully aware of the effect his actions were having. The kid reacts badly and things continue to escalate from there.

Of course I also don't really care about the details of the fight because I think Trayvon had every reason to feel threatened and since he only had his fists and he wasn't some kind of expert martial artist I just don't think Zimmerman's use of deadly force was justified here.

That said, I think the right charge was probably manslaughter. Unless there's some unreleased evidence (apparently it's been sealed) that we don't know about Murder 2 seems like reaching to me.

Would that apply to "White-Hispanics" though?


Sorry...couldn't resist!

[TheSkeptic]

The prosecution seems like it will have a much tougher job than the defense. The prosecution has to prove 100 percent that Zimmerman did it and is 100 percent guilty. All the defense has to do is create doubt and with that bogus Stand Your Ground law, it looks like it might be easy to do so.

Zimmerman is probably a prick and a piece of crap but none of us were there so we honestly don't know what happened. I just think it's funny how so many people are automatically wanting to create over racism when they don't even have hardly any of the facts. It's like people want Zimmerman to be a psycho racist so they can throw stones at him and about racism.
Why is it automatically assumed that when a white person does anything wrong to a black person or a person that is a minority that it's automatically a hate crime or has something to do with racism? What if people just do bad because they're evil or just bad?

Beyond reasonable doubt =/= 100 percent certainty. That said I do think the prosecution is reaching.

To be honest, I think that it's because people want a convenient explanation when things like this happen. Knowing the cause brings closure and it's a lot easier to write a person off as a racist/sexist/bigot, etc than it is to ask the deeper questions. Those convenient categories tend to also make it easier to ignore or excuse similar behaviours and tendencies in ourselves and the ones we love. So in short maybe it's a defense mechanism?

Zimmerman though probably did profile Trayvon. Maybe racially or maybe because he thought he could exert some authority over him. I think both explanations would make sense but Zimmerman personally strikes me more as prejudiced and influenced by his own perceptions than a racist in the sense of lighting matches for the Klan.

For the record, I don't want to throw stones at him or anything. I want him behind bars and/or sued in civil court. Not because he could be a racist but because he shot a child who was screaming for help. He needs to be held responsible one way or another imo.

Would that apply to "White-Hispanics" though?


Sorry...couldn't resist!

Touché.

Honestly I've been around both white hispanics and non-white hispanics and there weren't that many noticeable differences in this regard. It probably varies from country to country (and person) more than anything else but I've seen it enough times to think it might be a cultural trait in some cases.

I'm just thinking that since he's lied the most about how the altercation started that that's probably where he messed up legally. An attempt to detain the kid would fall into that and I think that a scenario like that one would fit the eyewitness accounts and the 911 call somewhat.

[Wild Cobra]

For the record, I don't want to throw stones at him or anything. I want him behind bars and/or sued in civil court. Not because he could be a racist but because he shot a child who was screaming for help. He needs to be held responsible one way or another imo.

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

I have seen the one TV news spot of the guy that talked behind his door so you couldn't see him. What else is there?

[TheSkeptic]

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

I believe most of those weren't completely sure and that at least one of them had said that the person calling for help was the younger one but that they'd been told that that individual was Zimmerman.

Using common sense though, that doesn't sound like a grown man. Owen, an audio expert, has already proved it wasn't Zimmerman as well. Combine that with the fact that it's highly unlikely that Zimmerman would've been that afraid if he was about to pull the trigger and that the screams stopped immediately after the shot and I just don't buy that at all.

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.

[Wild Cobra]

I believe most of those weren't completely sure and that at least one of them had said that the person calling for help was the younger one but that they'd been told that that individual was Zimmerman.

Using common sense though, that doesn't sound like a grown man. Owen, an audio expert, has already proved it wasn't Zimmerman as well. Combine that with the fact that it's highly unlikely that Zimmerman would've been that afraid if he was about to pull the trigger and that the screams stopped immediately after the shot and I just don't buy that at all.

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.

Believe as you wish. I think Owens was out fort his 15 minutes of fame, and did get a position as a paid legal prosecution witness.

Follow the money...

[Stringer_Bell]

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.

Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a , but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

[CosmicCowboy]

Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a , but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

Witnesses have already said Martin was shot in the chest and there were close contact powder burns on his hoodie. Zimmerman may be a but he's not gonna get convicted of second degree murder.

[boutons_deux]

"Trayvon was shot in the back"

It doesn't matter where the entry point was, Z stalked guy, provoked him into standing his ground in self defense and then shot him dead.

"follow the money"

where is the money in this murder case?

Very self-indicting to consider yourself a bro to WC