Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[TheSkeptic]

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

That's the interesting thing actually because apparently Florida's definition of Murder 2 doesn't require intent.

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and cons utes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0782.04.html

In discussing the case Findlaw explains it this way:

So what is second degree murder?

Florida's jury instructions (which are based on the Florida statute) spell out three elements that prosecutors must prove to establish second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt:

The victim is deceased,

The victim's death was caused by the defendant's criminal act, and

There was an unlawful killing of the victim "by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life."

The last element -- an "imminently dangerous" act that shows a "depraved mind" -- is further defined by Florida's jury instructions. Three elements must be present:

A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another";

The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and

The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."

Note that prosecutors do not have to prove the defendant intended to cause death, Florida's jury instructions state.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/201...ee-murder.html

Jury instructions here: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...uctions.shtml#

Based on the other stuff you've listed here plus this definition I actually am leaning towards Murder 2 now assuming the prosecution can prove it in court.

I also find it interesting that you can believe Zimmerman had no choice but to defend himself and still find him guilty because this charge looks to hold him accountable for his role in what happened (and for his behaviour during the confrontation and afterwards).

Although Manslaughter of a child seems to carry about 30 years so I wouldn't complain if the jury went that way.

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

Agreed. All of this combined is simply chilling in my opinion as is the calloused responses we've seen out of people. If I was American I would really hate for this guy to walk simply because of the legal precedent it would set.

He passed a voice stress test. Similar to, but not quite the same as a polygraph. It consisted of 2 questions:

"Were you in fear for your life when you shot him"

"Did you confront him?"

I'm not into police conspiracy theories, but asking a suspect 2 questions is not a thorough examination.

Check this interrogation out between Serino, another officer and Zimmerman. This one wasn't a lie detector test but the 2 officers grill him about inconsistencies and illogical statements in his previous statements and identify contradictions between his 911 call and his statement. This one wasn't subject to a lie detector test but I defy any Zimmerman supporter to listen to this for 15 minutes and honestly say they still think he's not lying.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...O5BW_blog.html

Go to the "911 calls (scroll to 16:42)" hyperlink.

I think this call really exemplifies how at first this might look like a self defense case (clearly Zimmerman had injuries and was beaten up) but when you really drill into the details, Zimmerman looks worse and worse in terms of the role he played in it.

That Voice Stress test was ruled inadmissible at the last bond hearing for obvious reasons. I have no idea why that's been pointed to as proof of innocence.

[bobbyjoe]

That's the interesting thing actually because apparently Florida's definition of Murder 2 doesn't require intent.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0782.04.html

In discussing the case Findlaw explains it this way:



http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/201...ee-murder.html

Jury instructions here: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...uctions.shtml#

Based on the other stuff you've listed here plus this definition I actually am leaning towards Murder 2 now assuming the prosecution can prove it in court.

I also find it interesting that you can believe Zimmerman had no choice but to defend himself and still find him guilty because this charge looks to hold him accountable for his role in what happened (and for his behaviour during the confrontation and afterwards).

Although Manslaughter of a child seems to carry about 30 years so I wouldn't complain if the jury went that way.



Agreed. All of this combined is simply chilling in my opinion as is the calloused responses we've seen out of people. If I was American I would really hate for this guy to walk simply because of the legal precedent it would set.




That Voice Stress test was ruled inadmissible at the last bond hearing for obvious reasons. I have no idea why that's been pointed to as proof of innocence.

- I think the prosecution fails miserably in its effort to satisfy the "depraved indifference for human life" element which is what makes Murder 2 an overreach.

- It's very clear that Zimmerman's intent wasn't evil or malicious or out of ill will or spite. He was trying to save the day and stop a criminal act from taking place. Add to that, it's clear he was incurring head injuries and it certainly doesn't take a depraved mind to fire a gun at TM.

- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't en le you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

- The reason the lie detector test is being discussed is that folks think it shows he's innocent, not because folks think it can actuall be used as evidence to acquit. O'Mara wanted this released to taint the jury pool. He wants jurors to have it in the back of their minds that Zimmerman passed the stress test, so it affects the case to that extent. Something like that can generate reasonable doubt.

- Of course, most who are touting this have not listened to the test. Had they done so, I doubt any reasonable person would agree that it was a thorough examination. These tests are greatly limited in that they don't assess stress during open-ended questions. It has to basically be a "yes or no" type question and most liars get caught in the explanation.

It would have been very interesting if GZ was administered a voice stress test about his finances too. We know he lied about that but it would have been interesting to see if the voice stress test caught the lies or not.

- I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear) but lying through his broken nose about not confronting him or continuing to follow him after advised not to do so. And that's what I think makes this clearly manslaughter, but clearly not Murder 2. It really is unethical and shameful for prosecutors to overcharge. That's not how our justice system is supposed to work. I have a feeling public perception and support for Zimmerman would be much lower had the charge been Manslaughter. It's a very fundamental concept to our legal system that the punishment should fit the crime, but not be more than the crime warrants. It's very offputting when prosecutors don't stay true to this.

[TheSkeptic]

- I think the prosecution fails miserably in its effort to satisfy the "depraved indifference for human life" element which is what makes Murder 2 an overreach.

- It's very clear that Zimmerman's intent wasn't evil or malicious or out of ill will or spite. He was trying to save the day and stop a criminal act from taking place. Add to that, it's clear he was incurring head injuries and it certainly doesn't take a depraved mind to fire a gun at TM.

- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't en le you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

- The reason the lie detector test is being discussed is that folks think it shows he's innocent, not because folks think it can actuall be used as evidence to acquit. O'Mara wanted this released to taint the jury pool. He wants jurors to have it in the back of their minds that Zimmerman passed the stress test, so it affects the case to that extent. Something like that can generate reasonable doubt.

- Of course, most who are touting this have not listened to the test. Had they done so, I doubt any reasonable person would agree that it was a thorough examination. These tests are greatly limited in that they don't assess stress during open-ended questions. It has to basically be a "yes or no" type question and most liars get caught in the explanation.

It would have been very interesting if GZ was administered a voice stress test about his finances too. We know he lied about that but it would have been interesting to see if the voice stress test caught the lies or not.

- I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear) but lying through his broken nose about not confronting him or continuing to follow him after advised not to do so. And that's what I think makes this clearly manslaughter, but clearly not Murder 2. It really is unethical and shameful for prosecutors to overcharge. That's not how our justice system is supposed to work. I have a feeling public perception and support for Zimmerman would be much lower had the charge been Manslaughter. It's a very fundamental concept to our legal system that the punishment should fit the crime, but not be more than the crime warrants. It's very offputting when prosecutors don't stay true to this.

Fair enough. I'm still waiting to see how the prosecution presents its case but looking at the definitions I'm leaning towards Murder 2. According to the strict definitions it seems to line up but obviously it'll depend on execution in court.

I'm thinking though that the prosecution will use the NEN call to establish ill will (towards TM not in general) and will then cite the actual pulling of the trigger and his behaviour afterwards as evidence that he'd reached a point where Trayvon's life didn't matter (which I think would meet Depraved Mind requirements).

Also, there's new stuff in discovery that suggests Trayvon was shot some 40 feet away from where the confrontation began and that the bullet went through straight from front to back at intermediate range. Allowing at least 1 inch for the end of the gun plus room for the gun and Zimmerman's arm in order to get a perfect shot through the heart there was probably a bit of distance between them by the time he pulled the trigger.

The height of the bullet hole also apparently lines up to a man about Zimmerman's height aiming at a roughly 6 foot victim which makes me doubt his story even more. Zimmerman's DNA was found in one spot on the kid's inner shirt (nowhere else) and apparently the hole in his hoodie and the hole in the shirt were different. That is the stuff that suggests to me that the kid was probably standing and was likely held when Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

Depending on who the defense puts forward, I think that this plus his behaviour afterwards is enough to fill the Depraved Mind requirement although I don't mind Manslaughter.

Also, if they can prove Zimmerman had committed or was attempting to commit a felony (stalking, kidnapping, etc.) and that Trayvon died while he was attempting to do that, that bumps the charge up automatically. To Murder 1 I think in this case but if they go this route they might've gone for Murder 2 in order to demonstrate that Zimmerman hadn't planned to kill Trayvon specifically.

Sorry I can't really go through point by point but based on the stuff that's come out I'm just not completely convinced that the prosecution overcharged. But I'm sure I'll change my mind some by the time the trial comes around.

Oh yeah and the Voice Stress Analyzer doesn't catch lies. It looks for signs of deception/stress. If you believe what you're saying, use a different interpretation of a term, or are just really upset about what happened, the results can turn out bad. It's like a polygraph that way and that's why it was thrown out of court. Although it's still helpful for members of law enforcement.

So while Zimmerman likely did pass that doesn't mean he was telling the truth. Just that the machine didn't detect any signs of deception in his voice. That's useful to a certain extent but it's really not something that can be used to confirm his innocence/guilt without corroborating evidence.

[bobbyjoe]

Innocent before "proven" guilty is a loophole?

Of course the irony is that had George Zimmerman not convicted Trayvon Martin of being guilty of a crime and presumed him innocent none of this would have happened.

[Trill Clinton]

while I wait for someone to counter bobbyjoe's points, here is a pic from Jamie Foxx at last nights award show. still keeping Trayvon's memory alive.

[Blake]

-
- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't en le you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

You just said a few posts ago that we don't know who attacked first.

Instigating the confrontation because he is a neighborhood watch man is not the same thing as instigating the fight.

I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear)

So why do you think he should be guilty of manslaughter when it appears he ” stood his ground”?

[cantthinkofanything]

while I wait for someone to counter bobbyjoe's points, here is a pic from Jamie Foxx at last nights award show. still keeping Trayvon's memory alive.

Hmmm. That changes things. At first, I was thinking that Zimmerman wasn't guilty. But I like Jaime Foxx.

[Wild Cobra]

Keeping a losers memory alive?

Disgusting.

[Trill Clinton]

Keeping a losers memory alive?

Disgusting.

wow..totally uncalled for.

[Wild Cobra]

wow..totally uncalled for.

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

that.

[Trill Clinton]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

that.

he wasn't a thug. even if he was, it doesn't justify his senseless death.

[cantthinkofanything]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

that.

...that's ed up. I'm with Trill on this one. Regardless of what you might think of Travon's lifestyle, he was still just a kid.

And I don't think Foxx is glorifying a thug. Have no idea what his exact stance on it all is. But my guess is he's just keeping the memory of a kid alive while possibly protesting some backwards laws that might allow Zimmerman or anyone to get away with senselessly killing someone.

And ...do you really think we should judge men based on what they were like at 17?

[Wild Cobra]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" at ude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.

[Trill Clinton]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" at ude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.

ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?

now that your true colors are shown your opinion this case shall be taken with a grain of salt.

[cantthinkofanything]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" at ude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.

You have got to be trolling.

There's tons of white kids doing the same . And there's just as many that would if they weren't raised in stable environments. I don't condone any of that but at a certain point, kids will be kids. There's no evidence that I've seen that has Travon as a gun toting gang banger or anything.

[Wild Cobra]

most of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?

Most kids?

Really now. Are you insane? And yes, a kid who bullies an old lady is acting "thuggish."

My God...

My problem isn't your understanding that some kids are this mean. It's that you accept the glorification of it.

Both Zimmerman and Martin appear as lowlife s to me. Neither should be glorified.

[CosmicCowboy]

ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do.

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Trill Clinton]

Most kids?

Really now. Are you insane? And yes, a kid who bullies an old lady is acting "thuggish."

My God...

My problem isn't your understanding that some kids are this mean. It's that you accept the glorification of it.

Both Zimmerman and Martin appear as lowlife s to me. Neither should be glorified.

so is Trayvon a thug or is he acting "thuggish"?

my problem is you not understanding teens tend to rebel. none of the things you mentioned about him is serious. school suspension? really? did he have a violent criminal background?

correct me if I'm wrong but the definition of a thug is a violent person or a criminal, neither of which was Tray.

[cantthinkofanything]

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

WC is at the wrong end of the speculum

[Trill Clinton]

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

?

so there aren't a lot of teens that get suspended from school? you ever heard of alternative school? or in school suspensions?

lol what kind of sick person would assassinate a dead child's character? smh

[Frank Dux]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

that.

Do anything to celebrate the murder of a kid...

that.

[TeyshaBlue]

ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?

now that your true colors are shown your opinion this case shall be taken with a grain of salt.

I haven't had alot to say about this case one way or the other. But , man. All kids Tray's age do not do this . That's ed up.

To offer that up as a blanket "Its okay, all kids do this" is as asinine as it is dangerous.

[Halberto]

This thread is still going? lol

[CosmicCowboy]

This thread is still going? lol

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.

[Trill Clinton]

I haven't had alot to say about this case one way or the other. But , man. All kids Tray's age do not do this . That's ed up.

To offer that up as a blanket "Its okay, all kids do this" is as asinine as it is dangerous.

didn't say "all" I said most.

the area Trayvon grew up in and went to school in, most of the young men his age were getting in trouble. it wasn't serious trouble to paint him as a "low life" or "thug" as WC is doing.

No one is saying its okay to get suspended from school but does that mean he is a low life?