yoni was gracious enough to give poor george a concussion. that will help.
if the known is not in Zimmerman's favor, lie.
It's unknown, so you make it in favor of Zimmerman.
I didn't say Zimmerman was good at assaulting or stalking.Not true.
Injuries to Zimmerman indicate he was assaulted. Martin has no such injuries.
So why do you lie to make the knowns and unknowns in his favor?The knowns are already in his favor.
Zimmeman's injuries were consistent with Zimmerman's claim that if an assault that caused them had continued it would be reasonable to believe he would likely face serious bodily injury or death. Perhaps the only reason his injuries weren't worse is because he shot and killed his attacker.
The justifiable use of force statute doesn't require you to actually suffer the death or severe bodily injury before you repel the attack with justifiable deadly force.
So did the "severe lacerations" (your words) require s ches?
nope, you implied that george got a concussion.
i think you take personal gratification from what george did. remembering what happened at the pump and all.
I was countering the argument that s ches would be required for the lacerations to have been severe. The lacerations are an indicator the back of his head was subjected to trauma. The person on the receiving end of the trauma would be the best judge of whether or not -- as the traumas was being inflicted -- it was reasonable to believe it would rise to a level to cause him serious bodily injury or death.
What evidence is in Martin's favor?
Did he suffer any injuries related to being assaulted by Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him?
You have no proof he did either.
No lie. The knowns are in his favor.
It was at the bond hearing. I linked to it a few times in that other thread.
Sure the hit caused a few scratches consistent with a scuffle (has anyone claimed there wasn't a struggle?) but the investigator said himself that the repeated head banging into concrete part wasn't consistent with the evidence they found.
Head wounds bleed a lot after all and unless you're going to argue that the paramedics were incompetent (which you could and I wouldn't believe you) I'm just inclined to think that the injuries overall weren't as serious as Zimmerman wanted us to believe.
Since his injuries didn't appear to be life threatening and a broken nose wouldn't change that, to me that means Zimmerman brought a gun to a fistfight that he instigated by chasing after a kid who was trying to get away. That's got to be some form of manslaughter at the very least.
So your definition of severe is pretty heavily exaggerated because of your bias.
Unknowns are automatically made in Zimmerman's favor by you because of your bias.What evidence is in Martin's favor?
No one said Zimmerman was good at stealth or fighting.Did he suffer any injuries related to being assaulted by Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him?
And? It's an unknown, but certainly a possibility. Your bias prevents you from admitting even that.You have no proof he did either.
Of course you lie. You always have, TRO.No lie. The knowns are in his favor.
They weren't scratches, either. So, what would his injuries have been if he hadn't stopped Martin by shooting him?
That's not the question to be answered in a justifiable use of force defense. Is it reasonable to believe, had he not used deadly force, he would have suffered severe bodily injury or death?
A broken nose and lacerations to the back of your head with any disorientation resulting from having your head assaulted might lead someone to reasonably believe that.
Zimmerman took a gun everywhere.
Following isn't chasing. And, there's no evidence he instigated or chased.
When did Zimmerman catch Martin? He had lost sight of him by about halfway through the conversation with police and it went on for another 2 minutes or so after that.
Only if it were supported by the evidence.
tell us more about his concussion.
Did he not have s ches then? The reason why I asked is because you guys are asking about the severity of a cut. Like when Griffin bit through his face in the playoffs they talked about how he had 2 s ches inside and outside his mouth. Thast typical vernacular to refer to the number of s ches as to severity. If he had none then it probably wasn't all that severe.
You can argue about what justifies what all day long. It is what it is.
@ Yoni
Under the cir stances no it wasn't reasonable.
You're also shifting the goalposts a little bit to go from "Zimmerman feared for his life because his head was getting bashed into the concrete" to "It was probably reasonable for him to fear for his life" when clearly it's been proven that the concrete bashing didn't happen and that his injuries weren't serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (in a place where equal force laws are in place).
I'll bet that the reality is that Zimmerman had just never been in an actual fight before (at least not without back-up of some kind) and he panicked. None of that would've happened if he hadn't gotten out of his car to chase a kid that was running away and because of the phone records to Trayvon's female friend I'm extremely unconvinced about the doubling back story either. Especially since Zimmerman's lawyer doesn't even claim that part happened.
Was Zimmerman not charged with 2nd degree murder? Obviously someone feels there is evidence to support it.
Is there even a reasonable MO out there for Martin to have attacked Zimmerman?
If Zimmerman went to his family doctor the following day, is that allowed into evidence at all?
The broken nose and black eyes could very well have come from Trayvon but with that much of a lapse how does the jury know that he didn't walk home, trip on a step, and hit his nose on a door knob or something?
You're right, I am changing the goalposts. I had believed his injuries occurred from having his head hit against concrete. I don't recall where I heard that and -- other than unsubstantiated refutations in this forum -- I hadn't seen anything contrary to that. That still doesn't mean the assault that caused the injuries -- however incurred -- didn't lead Zimmerman to reasonably believe that, if the assault continued, he would be seriously injured or killed.
Not sure what any of that has to do with Zimmerman being guilty of any crime. The fact remains, an altercation occurred. Zimmerman claims he believed he was going to be seriously injured or killed if the assault continued so he shot Martin. None of the evidence points to another scenario.
And, if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses when they jumped.
Follow.
Su ious person who was walking through a neighborhood that had experienced a bunch of crime, in the rain, appearing to be intoxicated, and looking at houses.
Why? Incidentally, Martin wasn't running until after Zimmerman told the 911 call taker that the su ious person was approaching him, while sitting in his truck, talking to them. It was only after Martin approached Zimmerman in the truck that he decided to run. Why? What did Zimmerman do (remember, he was on the phone and being recorded) to cause Martin to change his course and flee?
So, how did Zimmerman catch Martin after hanging up with the police? He certainly doesn't sound like he's running during the phone call. And, he states, about halfway through the call, that he's lost sight of Martin.
What about the girlfriend call leaves you "extremely unconvinced" he could have doubled back?
How much time transpired between the time Zimmerman ended the call with police and the girlfriend hears the beginning of an altercation?
Contemporaneous police reports recorded from observations made immediately after the shooting indicate Zimmerman had both a "possible" broken nose and injuries to the back of his head.
Last edited by Yonivore; 05-24-2012 at 06:50 PM. Reason: added possible...the officer didn't make a diagnosis.
Yes.
He was pissed about Zimmerman watching him and calling the police to report him as su ious and decided to teach Zimmerman a ing lesson.
Then why was Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder?
he was being stalked.
was anyone here invited to george's 50K party?
Well that makes sense then.
Trayvon ran away and he was also on the phone up until a few minutes before he died. Between that and the location of the body I highly doubt Martin ran back and blindsided Zimmerman in order to "teach him a lesson". The kid wouldn't even have known that Zimmerman called the police.
What you're failing to appreciate here is that not every black person has a chip on their shoulder. In fact, very few people of any colour think the way you seem to believe Martin did. Not even O'Mara is claiming that scenario so I'm not sure why so many Zimmerman supporters are favouring that line of thinking.
yoni's line of thinking goes way back to the pump.
Nice post from OP. I won't be surprise if this case never sees a courtroom. God bless
I suspect it was more like mere moments because of the way the girlfriend describing the call being disconnected as the altercation began. I doubt the altercation lasted more than a minute before Martin was shot.
The location of the shooting was close to where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked. Considering the duration of the call with police, and the amount of time that passed after Zimmerman exclaimed, " , he ran," Martin would have to have been running in circles around the buildings to arrive back at the place where he died. At the very least, it couldn't have been the first time he had been near there.
I think it's possible Martin knew he was talking to someone on the phone. If you have read the transcript of the call, Zimmerman describes Martin approaching him with something in his hand right before Martin broke and ran away. If Zimmerman was standing outside his vehicle when Martin approached, broke, and ran; it is possible he knew Zimmerman was talking to police. If Zimmerman was in his vehicle with the window up, I'm at a loss to explain why Martin's actions suddenly changed.
Why did Martin run?
Manny asked for a plausible MO. Not every black person has to have a chip on their shoulder for Martin to have had one.
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